Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions - Yamaha Raptor Forum
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post #1 of 87 (permalink) Old 06-07-2007, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions

EDIT AS OF 2012 READ THIS FIRST:

I'm not going to eliminate all below, but it is now unnecessary... One cut wire will take care of the issue. Read on:

The reverse RPM limiter was put into the CDI software near the end of the 2001 year, we assume to prevent injury (and lawsuits) from going too fast in reverse. The CDI used the signal from the red stator wire (reverse rotation winding) to count RPM to determine where to limit.

THe red wire (reverse rotation winding) is not necessary for an electric start bike, it was left over from when they used this engine on a kick start motorcycle. We have found and demonstrated that by disconnecting the red stator wire the reverse RPM limiter's limit is raised so high as to not have any bad effects, and nothing else is affected.

SO, either cut the red stator wire, or remove it from the connector and your reverse RPM limit issues go away... this wire comes from just behind the left side case cover and winds up to the frame where it goes through a 4 pin connector mating to the harness. You can remove the pin from the connector or just cut it near the connector and you are done!




END OF 2012 EDIT





NOTE: Thanks to zz77z77z, it has been pointed out that the wires shown below are not all in the 'BIG CDI CONNECTOR' as stated in the drawing, and the connector that they ARE in will depend upon whether the CDI/Harness is an 01 or 02+ model year.



Okay, here's how to eliminate the reverse limiter but still have the light. Less than $10 in Radio Shack parts. You will need to solder wires to the new relay (or have a friend do it for you), but it's quite simple. Make sure to use shrink tube or electrical tape or hot melt glue on the relay's soldered joints and on the one wire left free after cutting (Green and Blue).

I suggest you do this in the battery box near the CDI since all the wires come to the largest of the 3 CDI connectors. Then velcro or double stick tape or somehow mount the new relay next to the starter relay.

I suggest you use quick splice connectors because they are very easy to splice into an exisitng wire. Else, cut away a bit of insulation, solder and then tape well! Nothing here is high current, so 24 gauge wire or so will do fine for your additions. (also available from Radio Shack).

EDIT: SOLDERING AND SHRINK TUBING THESE JOINTS WILL MAKE A BETTER, LONGER LASTING CONNECTION, THE E-Z SPLICES ARE SUGGESTED SOLELY FOR EASE OF CONNECTION FOR THOSE WHOSE SOLDERING SKILLS ARE LACKING. YOU CAN ALSO USE WATERPROOF WIRE NUTS MADE FOR SPRINKLER VALVES, AVAILABLE AT HOME DEPOT OR EQUIV. QM


How it works:

The relay is actuated when the reverse switch connects to ground (quad is NOT in reverse). When the relay is off (quad's IN reverse), the wiring is such that the relay pulls the reverse light connection to ground. The other end of the reverse light is already attached to key switch controlled 12V. This turns the reverse light on, but only if the key switch is on too. If the key switch is off, nothing gets powered.

Notice that the CDI's reverse switch connection is always connected to ground, so it won't ever turn on the limiter.

Please feel free to ask questions; and suggestions for improvements to this drawing are welcome!





Good Luck!

'01 660 Raptor, Burgard +2+1 arms, YFZ Shocks, LSR anti-vibe, CTR pipe, jetted, K&N
'01 Polaris Scrambler 400, K&N
'02 Honda 400ex, Big Gun pipe, jetted, K&N, Lonestar +2 A-arms, Lonestar anti-vibe
'04 Suzuki LTZ400
'16 RZR XP4 1000 Turbo

Last edited by QuadManiac; 05-21-2012 at 01:37 AM.
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post #2 of 87 (permalink) Old 06-07-2007, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions

I made a change, due to an error in my first drawing. Please make sure to look at the post again. The location of the NC pin on the relay has been changed.

'01 660 Raptor, Burgard +2+1 arms, YFZ Shocks, LSR anti-vibe, CTR pipe, jetted, K&N
'01 Polaris Scrambler 400, K&N
'02 Honda 400ex, Big Gun pipe, jetted, K&N, Lonestar +2 A-arms, Lonestar anti-vibe
'04 Suzuki LTZ400
'16 RZR XP4 1000 Turbo
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post #3 of 87 (permalink) Old 06-07-2007, 08:22 PM
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Re: Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions

what are the symptoms of the green/white wire normally (before this mod)? ground when not in use and open when in use (or in reverse)? the reason im asking is that a relay being on all the time will create heat and cause the coil to expand and in turn go bad over time. just wondering because if the green/white wire goes to 12v when in use then we could re wire the circuit to only have the relay activate when the bike was in reverse.... just a thought

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post #4 of 87 (permalink) Old 06-07-2007, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions

The only reason for the relay is to REVERSE the logic that's occurring. THe switch only shorts to ground when NOT in reverse, so connecting the light directly to the switch would make it be illuminated for normal operation, off for reverse, not the best plan, lol.

The relay was selected because the coil only draws 30mA when actuated. The amount of heat generated, and therefore, degradation due to long term operation should be negligible. It is also rated for 100,000 cycles, so lifetime should not be a probelm.

Hope this answered your questions.

'01 660 Raptor, Burgard +2+1 arms, YFZ Shocks, LSR anti-vibe, CTR pipe, jetted, K&N
'01 Polaris Scrambler 400, K&N
'02 Honda 400ex, Big Gun pipe, jetted, K&N, Lonestar +2 A-arms, Lonestar anti-vibe
'04 Suzuki LTZ400
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post #5 of 87 (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 09:46 AM
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Re: Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions

i didnt want to connect the wires together. but i have found a solution. my company, Peripheral Electronics, makes a PTR7 which is normally used for aftermarket navigation bypasses and linear actuators. well one of the features is delay on. basically nothing is energized until the bike is put into reverse and the ground is removed. then i hook the output trigger to the light and life is good. 5.5ma draw. At $6.56 my cost it sounds like a plan. not that your way wont work and im not saying that my way is better. It's just that some people have differient ways of doing things. thats all

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post #6 of 87 (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 02:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPTonyT
i didnt want to connect the wires together. but i have found a solution. my company, Peripheral Electronics, makes a PTR7 which is normally used for aftermarket navigation bypasses and linear actuators. well one of the features is delay on. basically nothing is energized until the bike is put into reverse and the ground is removed. then i hook the output trigger to the light and life is good. 5.5ma draw. At $6.56 my cost it sounds like a plan. not that your way wont work and im not saying that my way is better. It's just that some people have differient ways of doing things. thats all
The PTR7 looks like an interesting little unit. It's a programmable (solid state?) relay with several programmable outputs. The manual is a little vague though. Is the "negative input" used to actuate the system when it is pulled to GROUND (0VDC) or only if pulled to a voltage negative relative to ground? I would suspect ground, but every reference to that input in the instructions says 'negative' voltage... of which there are few in an automobile (but the ground terminal is often called the negative, so that may explain the vernacular). The manual was obviously not written for electrical engineers (me) but for car stereo/security system installers. Also, in reading the manual, it appears that the output can be programmed for zero delay, is this correct? I don't think you'd want to wait 1 or more seconds to see that you indeed got into reverse. Can you program the output to flash? That might be interesting: to have a flashing reverse light! That would make it a lot easeir to see in bright sunlight conditions.

Do these inputs have internal pull ups to 12V? if so, the positve input would work just fine, tied to the reverse switch which is at ground at all times except when in reverse, then it floats. In reverse (switch off) the internal pullup will yank the input to 12V, and voila, light goes on. (the #5 in the manual, 'closed loop circuit' makes me think that pullups are there) If there are no internal pullups, you can use a resistor tied between the positive input and 12V to to pull the input up to 12V when reverse is engaged. This would only add the complexity of the additional resistor, and the rest of the circuit is essentially the same as in the drawing. What is the input impedence of the positive input? Knowledge of this value is necessary in order to select the right value for the pullup resistor (assuming no internal pullup).

One other perhaps serious issue: the PTR7 has 3 outputs, 1 positive at 2A, and 2 negative at 150mA. I assume the 'negative' outputs sink current to ground, correct? Since the reverse bulb is already wired to key switch 12V and the OTHER end goes to the CDI, where we are connecting to it, one of the negative outputs on the PTR7 will have to be used. The bulb is 1.7 Watts, which is about 140mA at 12V. So the bulb's current is very close to the max current specification of the PTR7. If the PTR7's output transistor circuits were designed with enough margin over this 150mA spec, there likely will be no problem, just something to be aware of.

The 5.5 mA draw of thePTR7 is certainly less than the 30 mA of the Radio Shack relay, although both can be considered rather negligible for this application. My design was simply constrained to using Radio Shack parts, so anyone could get them easily. There are thousands of ways to design hardware with an equivalent funciton. BTW, there is no reference in the manual as to whether the relays/switches in the PTR7 are solid state. If they are not solid state, then, due to the package size, I would guess that they are reed relays. From experience with robotics and with sonobuoys, i recommend against using reed relays in any application where vibration is an issue. I suspect that these ARE solid state though, and if i'm correct, there is no issue.

I'd like to play with a PTR7, just cause it's cute, lol. You said YOUR cost is $6.56, but you work there (or does 'my company' imply ownership?) What's OUR cost, and where can we get one?

I suggest you draw up an equivalent design using the PTR7, and we'll then have some options for the reverse limit override. Good job!



Good Luck!

'01 660 Raptor, Burgard +2+1 arms, YFZ Shocks, LSR anti-vibe, CTR pipe, jetted, K&N
'01 Polaris Scrambler 400, K&N
'02 Honda 400ex, Big Gun pipe, jetted, K&N, Lonestar +2 A-arms, Lonestar anti-vibe
'04 Suzuki LTZ400
'16 RZR XP4 1000 Turbo
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Re: Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions

ok so i did a little experimenting on my bench..... funny im an EE also!! basically you will get a one second delay when using feature #5 as that is the search time for the chip. there are no solid state relays..... transistors are used to eliminate power consumption. also there are pull ups.... 10k to a 1k..... your right... these instructions are written for an audio/video installer. negative input is ground in this situation and when the ground becomes open our chip then puts a ground output on the white wire.

140ma is pretty high for this unit and unfortunately will require a relay to stiffen the ground output. best thing about this setup is that it is only on and triggered when your in reverse.

the PTR7 cost me 6.56 add ten percent and thats your guys cost. then add shipping from 33760 for 1lb.... if you guys want em let me know. no it is not my business, i just work here, in my tech lab trying to see if i can blow some shit up from time to time to keep it interesting!!

ill work up a diagram later. the brown is input from switch and white is output to relay then to rev wire. red goes to key voltage and black goes to ground.

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post #8 of 87 (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions

Yeah, of course, I shoulda realized that individual transistors or FET's were used in the outputs, cause I had already discussed their unidirectionality... duhhh.

1 second ain't too bad... are u saying that's the boot time for the microcontroller when powering up? Or do the inputs get sampled once per second? Any way to make the delay shorter?

I'd try it without the relay - even though the bulb is rated at 1.7W, i'd bet that it actually draws less current (especially after a 100ms or so, once the filament warms up). Worth a try for the simpler install without additional relay.

RE: Blowin' shit up... man have I done that a lot of times in my 25 year EE career. Ya know, we could do the whole job with a single 2N2222 or 2N2907 transistor and 1 resistor, but ppl get scared of that stuff. Maybe I'll do another design just using that. We can have a whole plethora of choices!

Lookin forward to a diagram.

'01 660 Raptor, Burgard +2+1 arms, YFZ Shocks, LSR anti-vibe, CTR pipe, jetted, K&N
'01 Polaris Scrambler 400, K&N
'02 Honda 400ex, Big Gun pipe, jetted, K&N, Lonestar +2 A-arms, Lonestar anti-vibe
'04 Suzuki LTZ400
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post #9 of 87 (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 05:28 PM
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Re: Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions

your prolly right. we could prolly do it with out a relay but i guess better safe than sorry. i will prolly try this on my rappy this weekend. there isnt a way to make the delay shorter. basically the closed loop circuit was designed around the magnetic slider style switch and i dont know if you know but they sometimes false do to poor design well basically it gives the slider switch a chance to unf*ck itself. anyways its the way its programmed. but like you said one second isnt much

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post #10 of 87 (permalink) Old 06-08-2007, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Lose your reverse limiter but keep the reverse light - instructions

Got it, it's a 1 second switch debounce. Have fun installing it, let us know how well it works!

'01 660 Raptor, Burgard +2+1 arms, YFZ Shocks, LSR anti-vibe, CTR pipe, jetted, K&N
'01 Polaris Scrambler 400, K&N
'02 Honda 400ex, Big Gun pipe, jetted, K&N, Lonestar +2 A-arms, Lonestar anti-vibe
'04 Suzuki LTZ400
'16 RZR XP4 1000 Turbo
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