Raptor Forum banner
1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hey everyone, I'm trying to get the 660 dialed in after the rebuild, and I hope I'm close, but I'm having an issue now that I've never heard of. Before I say what the issue is, the motor was rebuilt completely stock, but I added a full Trinity Stage 4 exhaust, and cut holes in the airbox lid. Jetting is a follows: 165R/160L, 25 pilots, aftermarket needles with clip on the 3rd notch. A/F are 2.5 turns out.

Now, my issue:

I have no problems starting, no problems idling, and when I'm riding, if I'm anywhere from idle to 1/2 throttle, there is no issue. Anywhere from 1/2 to WOT, I feel like if I were to stay on the gas, it would bounce the RPMs off the red line, and no power to the tires. It's like the RPMs are there, but the most I can get is about 1/2 throttle's worth of power. Does that make sense? It doesn't bog out or anything, it just won't take off. I checked my plug tonight, it's a dark, sooty black. I hope this isn't something more serious than just needing to mess with the jetting a little, but I hope someone can point me in the right direction. Let me know if you need any more info! Thanks in advance!
 

·
VIP
Joined
·
1,070 Posts
You have the jetting backwards first of all.

The 160 main jet should be in the left carb and the 165 in the right.

The power vs rpm issue sounds like a slipping clutch. Did you properly install the clutch and make sure the clutch lever shaft is timed properly along with adjusting the correct clutch lever free play?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Lol I'm an idiot, I didn't notice that I wrote that wrong until you said something, but I do actually have it correct, the 160 is on the left, 165 on the right.

And the clutch slipping, I wouldn't think that would be an issue, would it, since this is happening at 1/2 to WOT? I'm noticing this when I'm just taking it down the road, so I'm not using the clutch nearly as much as I would if I was riding trails and whatnot. I use it to shift, but that's it. But to answer your questions, yes, I installed the clutch correctly, and I timed the clutch lever shaft and the clutch lever free play is still a work in progress. I've got an ASV clutch lever that I'm not a fan of and will probably end up getting rid of. But I don't think that's the issue, as the clutch doesn't slip at all.
 

·
I am unique
Joined
·
22,621 Posts
If it works good in the low rpm range but revs quickly in the over 1/2 throttle range, I suspect a slipping clutch...................
BUT, answer these questions, does it do this on acceleration, or just when cruising at higher rpm at over half throttle, also does it do it in the higher gears or all of the gears...... and last, what type of oil did you install in the engine, does it contain friction modifiers.................
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If it works good in the low rpm range but revs quickly in the over 1/2 throttle range, I suspect a slipping clutch...................
BUT, answer these questions, does it do this on acceleration, or just when cruising at higher rpm at over half throttle, also does it do it in the higher gears or all of the gears...... and last, what type of oil did you install in the engine, does it contain friction modifiers.................
I don't know if I was unclear or not, but the RPMs all sound "normal, like they would if I were to be riding at a comparable speed for those RPMs, I'm just not getting those speeds. Also, by the time I hit about a 1/4 throttle (for this riding purpose), my clutch is already all the way out and I would think a non factor. This is happening when I'm cruising and I'll try to hammer it. I normally would pull the clutch for this, but again, I'm only on my street and don't have a whole lot to work with. Lower RPMs through all gears, I have no issues. Oil, I used Shell Rotella T, made sure it was wet clutch approved, I've heard nothing of it having friction modifiers in it?
 

·
From The Stix 2 Da Brix
Joined
·
11,616 Posts
That's how my clutch did on 700 I could take off fine but soon as I started to gas on it the revs would climb but speed didn't. The clutch was slipping under more load.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,249 Posts
If the engine is reving up to RPM normal and sounds in tune then the first link between the crank and the rear wheel is the clutch. You have a classic description of clutch slippage so you will have to inspect the cable free play, cable routing and the clutch pull rod and lever placement. Assuming the oil is correct then you will have to remove the clutch plates and measure them to see if they are in spec. Next in line would be the chain and Sprocket (which you should be able to fell and hear if it were slipping over broken gear teeth). Then the splines on the rear sprocket hub, then the splines on the rear wheel hubs. Good luck

here's a quick test, smell the oil and see if there's any burnt clutch odor.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I hope I wasn't coming off like I was trying to contradict what you guys were saying or say that you guys were wrong. I guess I didn't understand how it could be the clutch due to the fact that the clutch is fully disengaged by the time this issue is coming about, but it seems that it's unanimous across the board, clutch. I didn't replace the clutch when I rebuilt the motor (yeah I know, why not?), but the chain and sprockets are all brand new, so it looks like the case is coming off again. Pain in the butt! Lol.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Looks like a new clutch is getting ordered! Oh, the joys of owning money pits, lol!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
521 Posts
mine did this when i installed my asv levers, I couldnt get any free play but i took off that gold piece that came with the levers, got free play and got my clutch adjusted so no more slippage
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
mine did this when i installed my asv levers, I couldnt get any free play but i took off that gold piece that came with the levers, got free play and got my clutch adjusted so no more slippage
Hmm...I wonder if that could have something to do with it...I'd be willing to try it before I took my clutch cover off again, lol. It made me mad to the point of not wanting to look at the bike for a few days when I did it a few weeks ago, so if I can avoid doing it again, I'd try it, haha.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,002 Posts
Hmm...I wonder if that could have something to do with it...I'd be willing to try it before I took my clutch cover off again, lol. It made me mad to the point of not wanting to look at the bike for a few days when I did it a few weeks ago, so if I can avoid doing it again, I'd try it, haha.
I would look it over real hard first. Its not like you have a high HP build and it wasnt slipping before was it? Could be that fancy clutch perch. I'll send you a stock one and you can just send me your ASV one:D. I'll even pay the shipping;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
i think there was a bit of confusion as to how your problem was being explained...

first off, the symptoms are indeed of a slipping clutch. at low rpm/low throttle (idle to 50%, like you said) the input shaft (engine) is not producing THAT much torque to the output shaft (tranny/wheels). however, when you rip on it, especially at higher revs, the mechanical connection between the input and output (the clutch) starts to see a lot more of this torque; a clutch that is in good working order can handle this no problem.

so we've diagnosed for the most part that your clutch is slipping. now we need to find out what is actually causing this problem.

here's where the problem splits into 2 different causes:

1. the clutch is only partly engaged, even when the lever is released, due to misadjustment of the cable/clutch itself. since the clutch is only engaged, let's say about 50% when you ride slowly, that torque produced by the engine still isn't strong enough to slip the clutch, since the coefficient of friction between the tires and the ground is less than that of the clutch against the plates. this is what makes you feel the acceleration. however, when you rip on it, the torque increases greatly, and the coefficient of friction inside the clutch is decreased, to the point where it's less than that of the tires against the grass. torque is lazy and follows the path of least resistance, so the clutch slips, and you don't go any faster.

2. the clutch is adjusted properly, but it is slipping due to 2 factors:
Mechanical-the plates themselves are worn out, and have lost that strong coefficient of friction that allows them to grab so hard when you're ripping on it
Chemical-the oil you put in does not have the right friction modifiers (this is the chemical inside the oil that allows the oil to stay slippery for the engine bearings, but at the same time not let the clutch to slip).


next step:

1. check the freeplay/adjustment of the clutch cable at both ends. cheapest/easiest fix, try this first
2. make sure the oil is the right kind/do an oil change with factory stuff. this is not free, but still cheap
3. take apart and inspect the clutch disks to see if they're worn.


hope i'm not talking out my ass here, just trying to look at it from a logical perspective :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I would look it over real hard first. Its not like you have a high HP build and it wasnt slipping before was it? Could be that fancy clutch perch. I'll send you a stock one and you can just send me your ASV one:D. I'll even pay the shipping;)
I'm going to look it over again before I start tearing the cover off. It could be this so-called "fancy clutch perch." Personally, for the type of riding I do, I think it's crap, lol. On the other hand, I can't just GIVE it away, lol!
 

·
VIP
Joined
·
1,070 Posts
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the ASV levers and they work perfectly.:)

Did you use the brass insert when you installed the cable? If so, then that may be your issue. That insert is used with Honda cables.

If the insert is not the issue, then take your finger and push the clutch arm on the engine case all the way towards the front of the machine(clockwise) until it stops. Now check if the mark on the case (the line that is cast in the cover) and the small mark on the clutch arm line up. If not, then your clutch rod is improperly aligned.

To align the marks, you remove the circlip that holds the arm on and re-install the arm so the marks line up. Just make sure the shaft is turned all the way clockwise when you install the arm. :thumbsup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,002 Posts
I'm going to look it over again before I start tearing the cover off. It could be this so-called "fancy clutch perch." Personally, for the type of riding I do, I think it's crap, lol. On the other hand, I can't just GIVE it away, lol!
Your not giving it away you trading it for a stock "WORKING" lever:D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the ASV levers and they work perfectly.:)

Did you use the brass insert when you installed the cable? If so, then that may be your issue. That insert is used with Honda cables.

If the insert is not the issue, then take your finger and push the clutch arm on the engine case all the way towards the front of the machine(clockwise) until it stops. Now check if the mark on the case (the line that is cast in the cover) and the small mark on the clutch arm line up. If not, then your clutch rod is improperly aligned.

To align the marks, you remove the circlip that holds the arm on and re-install the arm so the marks line up. Just make sure the shaft is turned all the way clockwise when you install the arm. :thumbsup:
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with them. I just personally haven't been too impressed with mine, lol. I would have preferred that my former friend hadn't stolen my stock clutch perch and had to give me this one, honestly. I did NOT use the insert, so that isn't the issue. In regards to the clutch arm, what I am getting from what you said is that you are trying to replicate what occurs when the clutch lever is pulled, correct? And you are saying that when the clutch lever is pulled, the two marks are supposed to align at that time? They aren't suppose to align when the clutch is disengaged? If that is the case, then I do indeed have mine assembled incorrectly. The Clymers told me if I had to align those marks by removing snap ring, I should just position them so they are lined up.

Is it possible someone could take a picture of the clutch arm with the clutch engaged, and also disengaged? I just want to see how the marks line up in both positions to see how they compare to mine.
 

·
VIP
Joined
·
1,070 Posts
The two marks should line up when you push the clutch arm towards the front of the machine by HAND until it stops. The cable does not even need to be installed to align these two marks.

This times the gears in the shaft so there is a slight preload on the pull rod that engages and disengages the clutch. When the cable is hooked up and you adjust the lever free play, then the clutch cable pulls the arm and disengages the clutch.

If the marks do not line up and you do not have the proper clutch lever free play, then your clutch could be partially disengaged even when you let the lever all the way out, which will cause it to slip.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top