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Discussion Starter #1
The Raptor 700 is getting a fully programmable fuel control. If possible, I would like to get Owner’s and Tuner’s feedback before the product is finalized.

How many people want to mess with fully programmable fuel control versus just selecting already tuned Profiles for different engine, exhaust, airbox and fuel combinations? How many of you want to weld in (or have welded in) bungs for Ox sensors? Would you like to order exhaust pipes with an optional oxygen sensor bung already installed? What would this feature be worth to you (so the exhaust manufacturers can determine if it is worth their time to do it)? What is your priority for features like?-

Data logging for every second your Raptor has run
Programmable fuel
Programmable ignition
Ability to change-
Profiles (maps and all) on the bike without a PC
injector
fuel pressure
Extra features like-
extra pressure sensor for boosted applications (turbo, super)
electronic boost control
nitr. sol. drivers

I know what I want but that is not necessarily what you guys need....

Here is what is coming-
Direct replacement for stock ECU - Zero splicing into your harness.........
Fully programmable
Fuel
Ignition
At least 15 rider selectable Profiles. Profiles have everything from Maps and Timing to warmup enrichment and accelerator pump affect.

Mapping done by Volumetric Efficiency Table and Target Lambda Table
VE describes how your engine pumps and Target Lambda describes how rich or lean you want it to run at any point.

On board Bosch LSU4 wide band Lambda

At least 60 hours of logging and probably over 100 hours, all at 10 samples per second. There is no start or stop logging condition. All the data is stored since you first plugged it in and switched on the key. I do not know about you, but I am sick and tired of trying to track down intermittent problems without data.

Now for my real pet peeve and the reason I did this. Lambda is qualified as valid then sorted for each load point. The samples are then averaged and compared to your Target Lambda and you are presented with the result. If you choose, you can ask the program to fix your VE table to correct for rich or lean conditions on a cell by cell basis or globally for the whole map. I have spent way too many hours pouring over logged data from my megabuck data acq system to try figure out where I am rich or lean and by how much. PCs do this much faster and better than I can by hand. In addition, when you have the Lambda, logger and fuel control integrated, you can use engine status to qualify Lambda. In other words, if the engine is in warm-up mode, acceleration enrichment or deceleration enleanment, you just plain do not use the Lambda samples.

As for auto tune, I have never trusted a machine to make my tuning decisions even if its "authority" is limited. I would not expect you to either and thus it will not autotune. You look at the data for your machine and you decide what you want to do.

With respect to moving forward, the system is being finalized. Questions like how far from Target Lambda is acceptable? How many Profiles do you want on the Raptor?

All these things are being tweaked as we speak and thus I am very interested in people's thoughts and comments both positive and negative."
 

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Discussion Starter #2
The simpler side

A few people have said that I did not spend enough time on the simpler side of things-------

We are shooting for the best of both worlds. If you do not want to play with oxygen sensors, just ask for it without that option. You do not need to be a tuning wiz (or know anything about tuning for that matter) to get something from the control.

It is actually easier to use than any other solution out there! It takes about ten seconds to swap the fuel control and push the start button. Zero wiring or splicing into your wiring harness! It takes just as long to swap it back if you ever need to.

It comes with the Profile you want as the default Profile. If you want to play with other Profiles, all you do is hold down the throttle when you turn on the key to select a different one. No PC is needed!

You get ignition advance which dramatically improves performance and drops exhaust gas temperatures from the 1530F range to about 1050F! You get to burn the fuel in the combustion chamber and not the exhaust pipe where it burns your leg.

You get off throttle ignition advance engine braking. We are currently working with riders to generate different Profiles for different riding conditions or styles. Some guys want it to slow like it hit a brick wall when you close the throttle, others want it to roll on. The amount of advance you put in lets you choose either extreme or something in the middle.

We are trying to put a tremendous amount of power and flexibility in a small simple easy to use package. The throttle selectable Profiles idea came from a top pipe manufacturer. Ideas like that are most welcome. Any ideas to make the thing easier to use for everyone would be helpful.
 

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I think it sounds like a hell of a product. I love the fact that it will advance the timing. As long as it didn't cost too much (more than $300) I would get one.
 

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yeah, how much does it cost? I'm interested and haven't bought an aftermarket EFI unit yet, but will be before I buy any other mods. I think I see what you're saying. So that it will run like an EFI on a car, or whatever. I have a question. How does the EFI unit on the 700R work. Is it a cheap unit that works almost like a carburator. Is the only sensor it has the throttle position sensor. Give us a price. Will it be able to tune more than one raptor?
I think hmf or whoever should just offer us a pipe with an o2 sensor and bung already installed and give us a price, maybe $20 more for the bung, then whatever for the sensor. If this is as good as you say it is, you should be able to get the business of all of the EFI quad owners (which will be a lot, pretty soon). And the pipe MFGs can either make sales with an o2 or not. First you need to put it together and run some dynos and show us some proof. If your system is going to cost $700 then it should be able to put out $700 worth of hp and torque. Considering what $700 will buy for a 700R, l could probably get a 734bb kit for $700. It really just depends on how it performs. If two 700Rs w/the same mods and yours puts out twice the gains of a Trinity EFI unit. Have you got one put together yet?
 

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Would you consider a kit to put the EFI on the 660?
I don't know if the 700 has a crank position sensor or knock sensor.

You seem to know what your talking about, would you recomend a heated or nonheated Ox sensor?
 

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sounds like the controller i have been waiting for, curious on what we are talking dollar wise and when it will be available to ship.
 

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i dont think that some one is going to go to that much expense without it being worth more than $2000 ,1500,,besids it could then be used on any motorcycle atv car ect ect would be worth millions

good luck
ill buy one
 

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Discussion Starter #10
ChoChillin said:
How does the EFI unit on the 700R work. Is it a cheap unit that works almost like a carburator. Is the only sensor it has the throttle position sensor. Give us a price. Will it be able to tune more than one raptor?
I think hmf or whoever should just offer us a pipe with an o2 sensor and bung already installed and give us a price, maybe $20 more for the bung, then whatever for the sensor. It really just depends on how it performs. If two 700Rs w/the same mods and yours puts out twice the gains of a Trinity EFI unit. Have you got one put together yet?
ChoChillin You bring up a lot of good issues
The stock700r unit uses crank position, throttle position, engine temp, inlet air temp, battery voltage, and manifold pressure. It has the ability to do warm up enrichment (choke), acceleration enrichment (accelerator pump) and fuel and ignition using throttle position and engine rpm (3D mapping). It also has the ability to do barometric (altitude) correction. We also use all those sensors and can do all the same things. Unlike to stock control, you have access to as much or as little as you like. The important part is, you can dig as deep as you want into tuning or stay as far away from it as you like.

I am not close to what it costs manufacturers to do carburetors versus EFI but I would guess EFI is more expensive. There are just too many parts with an EFI system (pumps, regulators, injectors,,,,). However, EFI is by no means a direct replacement for a carburetor. You can do so much more with EFI to get fuel exactly right absolutely everyplace the engine runs.

Price..... When I signed on to this site, I agreed not to sell stuff. I really am looking for feedback from the people that part with their hard earned cash to buy these things and not pitch my box. I can tell you that that this is not some $1000 wiz bang gadget that no one but the foolishly rich would buy. As you might expect, it is also not a $180 fuel pulse stretcher. I think you all will be happy.

The first pipe manufacture we visited asked us to add rider selectable profiles with no PC needed. We did it. They also suggested an option for their pipes to supply an O2 sensor bung (with plug installed). They are thinking the same thing you are and I would encourage anyone reading these posts to add their ideas on how much having that bung on a pipe is worth. I can tell you that the pipe guys read these sites, they are smart and they will listen. As for the sensor itself, we specifically picked the most cost effective out there. VW uses the Bosch LSU4 sensor on a lot of its cars and theirs was the best price. You can get one from us or you can buy it down at the local auto parts store where it should be less than $50.

Now for the proof part-
We are working with a couple of independent tuners to test the product. I am going to ask them for back to back dyno runs to show what happens when a pulse stretching control is used in comparison to ours. I expect the timing advance to give us a strong advantage in power. The adjustable fuel will give us an overall advantage in power and in how the bike responds. The main point is the ability to perfectly match any modification either now or in the future.

What dynos will not measure is very simple Profile selection in the field, ten second swap out times, now wiring harness modifications, and and and. However, we know that all that means nothing if it does not deliver.

The control has been running on several bikes for several months and will be doing the back to back testing shortly. You will have the results when I do.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
firstraptor said:
Would you consider a kit to put the EFI on the 660?
I don't know if the 700 has a crank position sensor or knock sensor.

You seem to know what your talking about, would you recomend a heated or nonheated Ox sensor?
Our control would be a small part of the cost of a kit for the 660. You would need all those Yamaha bits like wiring harness, fuel pump/regulator, throttle body, injector, sensors and crank pickup stuff. That stuff alone would probably run you $1000 at your local dealer and just makes the project too expensive in my opinion.

The 700R uses a crank sensor system built into the flywheel. There is no knock capibility.

I am by no means the knower of all. In my opinion, you need a wide band oxygen sensor to tune. To my knowledge, these are all heated. We use the Bosch LSU4 which is heated, accurate and cost effective.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hippy said:
firstraptor the 700 has a crank sensor

Is is water proof

all these damn EFI controllers are not water tight
lots of water by me
The factory guys had a very good idea. They potted the electronics in silicon (or something like it) rubber. I do not think we can do any better so we do exactly the same thing. We also use the exact same sealed OEM connector to the wiring harness. The only thing which is open is the USB connector which has a small plug to keep junk out. Even if something goes into the connector, the silicon rubber seal starts at the back side of the connector so no damage is ever done.

The factory guys know what they are doing. We are just trying to give it to you in an adjustable form.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
ashnery said:
,,besids it could then be used on any motorcycle atv car ect ect

good luck
ill buy one
Funny you should mention that-
I think this thing would make a heck of a general tuning tool. With very little PC software modification, it will sit on top of any engine and build the Lambda map. It can also record the existing injector pulse width from another (stock) fuel control. It also has other features like boost control, fuel augmentation,,,,. All of this is outside the scope of this forum but you are right.

The base fuel control will support eight injectors and eight ignition outputs. The Raptor is just the start. Add a few injector and ignition drivers and you have the exact same system for ................
 

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sounds pretty good. So most of the other systems for sale only stretch the pulse? So that means the injector just stays open a bit longer? Your system sounds good. I'll wait and see how it does but will most likely get one. I'll probably wait for your reports on it and see whats hashed out on the forums about it. If all is good, count me in. As for the headpipe. Pipes are what now, about $200? So something a little more than a regular pipe. They should be no more than the H Bomb pipe (or whatever its called) It has extra fabrication involved with its design so should be no more than that, then add on the sensor, or just let us add it. The thing is though. I would probably never buy a headpipe as it is, but this efi thing might entice me to get one so that it will work.
Just pay your dues to advertise on here when you're ready to sale and bluetraxx, shouldn't be that much. Maybe they can cut you a deal if you only have one item to sale and not a whole store.
 

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The doebeck style Gen II and Gen III controllers just strech the pulse width.
The PCIII USB does much more and in the future will have an add on to manipulate the timing curve. Your Box would have to be phenominal to get me to change from the PCIII that I am using as it does many of the same things less engine timing (for now) and with the use of the Wideband sensor we were able to create a map for my mods on the Dyno that is working out very well for my self and others with the same mods as I that I have shared it with.
I do look forward to your results and wish you sucess. I would like to see them honestly compared to a fully optimzed PCIII equiped machine on the same dyno with the same mods on the same day for a truly fair and accurate comparison.

Randy
 

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Discussion Starter #16
RaptorRandy27 said:
The doebeck style Gen II and Gen III controllers just strech the pulse width.
The PCIII USB does much more and in the future will have an add on to manipulate the timing curve. Your Box would have to be phenominal to get me to change from the PCIII that I am using as it does many of the same things less engine timing (for now) and with the use of the Wideband sensor we were able to create a map for my mods on the Dyno that is working out very well for my self and others with the same mods as I that I have shared it with.
I do look forward to your results and wish you sucess. I would like to see them honestly compared to a fully optimzed PCIII equiped machine on the same dyno with the same mods on the same day for a truly fair and accurate comparison.

Randy
Randy,

The pulse stretching approach that all the other controls use works. It is just a bit limiting. The PCIII has really nice looking PC software but I just do not see how it really does anything more than any of the other pulse stretching products out there. What is better about the PCIII piggyback controller versus the other pulse stretching piggyback controllers?

We did not see the need to create another piggyback pulse stretching controller and thus I honestly have not spent a lot of time learning about the PCIII. However, I do have another question for you.

If the PCIII only "looks" at the injector signal and the throttle position sensor, how can it "know" when the Yamaha control will close the injector in the future such that it can close it early? This question has been bugging me ever since I saw someone putting a smaller than stock injector opening number in the PCIII software and the software did not object. If you do not know when an injector is supposed to close, how can you possibly close it early and deliver less fuel?

Maybe you record all the stock injector openings at different rpms and throttle positions but then that would only work at the inlet air temperature and altitude at which you recorded the stock openings....... If you were going to go to all that trouble, you might as well build a fuel control.

I'm not the world's smartest guy by any stretch of the imagination but, the only way I know of to open and close an injector exactly when you want to is to know where the crankshaft is and actually be the one figuring out how to do all the EFI functions.

Any education you can provide would be most welcome.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
RaptorRandy27 said:
with the use of the Wideband sensor we were able to create a map for my mods on the Dyno that is working out very well
I agree with Randy on the wide band O2 sensor and that is why I designed it into our unit.

Cost wise, it should be less than the cost of a couple of tuning trips to the dyno.

More importantly, the fuel control data is combined with the O2 sensor data to remove unwanted samples. Acceleration enrichment and other transient affects will pollute your O2 data. The fuel control tells us when it is doing these things and we weed out those O2 samples. You also get data from where and how you ride, not just spinning up a drum in one gear. Do not get me wrong, you can do some tuning on the dyno. It is just that you can do so much more when you're looking at real data from your own riding.

My favorite reason for putting O2 together with the fuel control and the data logger is that the PC software can now do all of that painful work of figuring out what the O2 value is for every map point and just how much it differs from the O2 reading you want at that point. If you want .94 Lambda (13.81 A/F on gas) at 60% throttle and 6000 rpm, it will sort all the O2 samples at that operating point, tell you the average of all those samples is .97 (for example) and then offer to correct your VE table for you such that you will get .94 the next time you run.

I know this stuff is not for everyone. What I want to do is take the mystery out of EFI and give anyone who wants to tune, the tools to tune and the knowledge to have fun doing it. The dyno operators should not be the only ones having a good time with this stuff.

If all of this just makes your eyes glaze over, rest assured that we will be providing a bunch of maps for all kinds of different engine Profiles. All you need to do is hold your throttle open when you turn on the key and you can chose any one you want. No lifting the seat to twiddle knobs and no need to hook up a PC! Special thanks to the pipe manufacturing guys that came up with that idea.
 

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man this things just keeps getting better :eek:, can't wait for it to come out 8).
 

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Lola, I don't think I'm in the position to give you an education Lol, your way more advanced than I. I'm just a redneck gearhead that got lucky enough along the way to make enough money to own lots of toys and play with the PCIII a lot on winged minsprints that run sport bike engines with EFI, my main area of experiance is with methanol and mapping fuel curves for the same. I have pulled fuel out with the PCIII on my 700R but just by going to the minus side of zero at the desired rpm and throttle opening using the wide band sensor to get the proper A/F ratio. The rest of what you speak is over my head.
The biggest adavantage of the PCIII over the dobeck style controllers that I can see is being able to fine tune the fuel curve at any throttle opening at any RPM thru out the entire range, something that can not be done with the Dobeck gen II, or Trinity & Boss Noss gen III controllers as you know they use carb logic with adjustments only for low mid and high, yes they work but you can not choose a specific throttle opening or RPM like you can with the PCIII which in my opinion makes it far superior. The PCIII also interfaces with the ecu to poll all the sensors the stock ecu does as I under stand it. I'm one of those people that doesn't need to know exactly how it works, just how to use it so I can tune it to get what I need. Luckily, so far I've had good results with my 700R. I'm still learning how to manipulate the fuel curve on these gas burners and use all the features of the PCIII USB. I personally love to be able to hook my laptop up to the machine and make adjustments if needed, but I'll be one of the first one's to buy your controller if it works better than what I'm running now. I just want to see an accurate and fair comparison between yours when it's done and a PCIII equiped machine. If you weren't so far away from me I'd volunteer to bring my machine to do the comparison between controllers.
 
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