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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ok, I have a "special" raptor, well, raptor 660 powered buggy...

So, here's my dilemma.. Test drive last weekend. couple of laps, had a blast, shut her down for a little then no start.. got towed home, figured it was bad gas..

After some digging, its actually no-spark.. So, I take out my cheapo multimeter, stator seems ok, coil seems ok, figure its the CDI (the black wire to my coil had come a bit loose and was arcing a bit im sure, but we're talking only 15 mins of driving).

Well, the ground wire from the battery post to the starter mount is fine, but all the ground wiring from there through the harness (all the smaller stuff) is totally burned up, lots of melted insulation.

The ground wire that twists around the orange wire that leads to the coil had actually burned hot enough to cause a break in the orange wire.. Repaired that...

Order a new CDI, tighten down the wire, and proceed to check out the rest of the wiring harness..

I've checked all the other wires, and they seem to be ok, and I will be repairing the grouping of grounds as well, but I have to wonder why my grounds burned up...

So, To add to my issue, my lighting is 2 x 100w KC's.. Much more than the 55w stockers, but I had done some research and found out that theres about 244 watts available on a raptor.. I figured a 5/25w brake light, and the pair of KC's would put me at 205-225 watts.. But I can't help but wonder if the added load from the KC's is what burned up the grounds? Perhaps I should run the KC's grounds directly to the battery? The positive leads are fine, and the wiring that KC sent with the lights matched the stock headlight wiring (20gauge i think). So I didn't think that load would break the bank, but perhaps it is?

I got my new CDI today, and believe he sent me a 2001 model.. my current CDI installed and my starter / lights / brakes / indicators all work, just get no spark. With the "new" one, my temp light came on, and nothing worked, starter wouldnt even turn over.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
 

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I am unique
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So what is your question, no start or burning ground wires, if it is the burning ground wires. most likely it is the fact you are running more power through the ground circuit then it is designed for, heavier grounds and extra grounding between the engine and frame should fix that............
 

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Master of the Electron
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Was your fuse blown too? ONLY black wires damaged? EVERY black wire? Do you have blacks tied together at more than one point and also at the frame/negative terminal? If so, you had or have a short, somewhere, from 12V to a black wire... The short would first blow the fuse, but with engine running, the charging circuit continued to provide 12V to melt the wires.

Somewhere, a red, brown, red/white, or red/black wire was shorting to a black... and that wire is likely going to be melted too - look carefully and you'll likely find your culprit.

What makes you think the CDI is bad (other than the loose spark boot - didn't it run after that)? The most likely outcome from this scenario would be an overheated/shorting out stator.

Yes, there's about 250 watts available , but the bike requires some too... figure 100W for the bike and you have 150 available for lighting... I doubt the KC's caused the wiring damage (although it is possible), but they are too much for the charging system to handle - change them or you will be blowing stators regularly.
 

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Do you have heavy ground wire from the engine to the - battery terminal. The raptor has one or that is where the ground hooks up to. I have herd of people forgetting to hook it back up after taking off the stator cover. WHen they go to try to start it it burns up the wiring. Like the engine is still grounded but through all the little negitave wires in the harness. The massive current draw from the starter burns them up.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Ok.. I completely followed the ground circuit... Theres 2 or 3 points where it splits into multiple wires. Only one wire seems to have done all the damage, though it melted into the other grounds bundled near it. This is the black wire that connects to the coil..

The grounds that run out to the lights seemed to be ok and un-melted past the point where they were bundled with the coil ground.. So I don't think they immediately contributed to the damage..

So I guess the 244 watts that I read was total, and not whats available for accessories? I've seen a 300w stator upgrade, would this be worth it? (I know some stuff is better than others). The 55w ATV lights are really horrible on this buggy, hence my move up to the KC's.. And I had figured my 205/225 would be well within the limit if 244 was available.. so, if the system needs about 100w, even with a 300w stator, thats gonna be short (100w system + 200w lights + 5/25w tail / brake light).. Hmmm....

So.. I have all new ground wiring here, and I'm going to replace it exactly as its wired in the harness, splits where they are from the factory.. I did go a little heavier, picked up some 12g wire just in case..

I did seperate the grounds, and just wrap with electrical tape to test the system, and currently I can get the starter to turn over, neutral / reverse lights work, all other lights work, starter will also not turn over when the kill switch is in the off / key is in the on (as it should), so the electrical system seems to be somewhat working.. But I have no spark.. I am replacing the ground wires just because the original is definitely crispy and has damaged the other grounds bundled next to it.

In all the assembly of this project, there were a few nuts that were unfortunately, only hand tightened.. Both nuts on the starter (ground to the base, and positive to the terminal) (doh!), and the nut that holds the black wire to the coil. All three did come loose, though they stayed in place with intermittent contact.

So, I want to assume that the wire burned up because the 3 loose nuts that I mentioned, and this caused a domino effect of burning through and shorting the orange wire that runs from the CDI to the coil. This is why I think the CDI is damaged (and also because the coil and stator seemed to test ok on the multimeter).

The fuse did not blow either..

The thick ground between the battery negative terminal and the starter didn't burn up, but it also wasn't bolted properly to the starter mount, so i'm sure that contributed (all three loose nuts).

I believe its the CDI box, because I do have the raptor service manual, and have checked the coil, and the stator, and most of the readings are in line (the ones that I am not so sure of are the Charging / rotor rotation direction detection coil resistance (#10 in the troubleshooting guide in the service manual) and the primary coil resistance on the ignition coil, because my ohm meter doesnt read that low, I get a .1 / .0 flickering back and forth when checking those). I have unplugged the rectifier (silver finned metal box) and spark did not return.

Knowing that the orange wire that goes between the coil and CDI was burned enough (by the ground that was loose on the coil) to break (and probably make contact with the ground) is what makes me suspect I fried the original CDI.

I'm also thinking on adding a second, heavy ground wire from the negative batt terminal to the frame, its common on the YFZ's, and I've seen it done in alot of other places, just to reinforce the ground connection..

So, why no spark? CDI?

And I'll report back on checking the specific wires that you mentioned QuadManiac.. For now the ground to the coil was the overheating one, it did the damage to some other grounds that it was bundled with, as well as the orange wire to the coil.. It doesn't seem like there was damage to the wires you mentioned, but I will look them over with a closer eye now..

Thanks in advance guys! I really appreciate it!
 

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Master of the Electron
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Ah ha.... is the large black cable - that was not tightened properly at the case, the ONLY ground connection at the battery, or were there any others?

I agree, for your use, I'd take the heavy cable to the case near starter, and run another 12 or 10 gauge wire from battery negative to frame where you can tie all other blacks to - or just run it all the way forward and use it as a ground bus for anything (except starter) that requires a ground. Always nice to have a good, solid ground bus and not depend on intermittent, corroding connections to the frame as ground returns. Do it this way and you'll never have to worry about it again.

The manual is limited in its tests and does not find all faults. Have you attmepted to start with the rectifier/regulator unplugged? If spark returns, the stator overheated and has an internal short. Even if it doesn't, this is still a possiblility - you should ohm out the stator - make sure that no windings are shorted to any others, i.e., the three whites are one set, the red and white/red another, the green and white/green another. If any of these individual pairs (or threes in the case of white) show a resistive connection to any other pair, the stator windings are shorted (test with stator unplugged).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The large ground from the battery to the starter was the only ground hooked up to the battery.. All of the other grounds originate from a factory splice in the middle of that wire. Is there supposed to be a second? I transplanted the motor from quad to buggy, and there wasn't a second wire to the battery ground when it was on the quad either..
 

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Master of the Electron
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No, the factory splice is in the middle of that cable as it should be... so, with the end not tied properly to case, all current (even from starting) was likely returning to that middle splice via the frame to the small conductor grounds to the large wire splice... starting current would be enough to fry the wires.

That one ground connection to case is very important.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
As I have found out.. The hard way.. (It was only a shakedown run, lots of things were hand tightened in a 4 month fab job that were "supposed to be gone back and checked" but I admit, I faltered a bit in the excitement of running this thing. The ground on the starter / engine case from the battery coming loose definitely fried the other wires (I feel like a fire marshall here, following things back from the source LOL). And the path of the burned wiring definitely followed the wiring to the ground on the coil.
Grounds that went elsewhere (switches, lights, etc) weren't burning themselves, but were damaged by the superheated coil ground wire.

So, having just replaced the fried ground wire, and upgrading it to a 12 gauge, I've hooked it back up, remembering this time to tighten those 3 critical bolts, and still, no spark. Other than that, engine turns over, lights, indicator lights come on, but no spark.

Since I did the service manual tests on the coil and stator (see above), I don't think they are at fault.

Wish I had a known good CDI to swap and see (or another rappy to put my questionable CDI into to test).. The one I got was supposed to be for an 04, but when it was plugged in, I heard a pop, a sizzle, smelled burning and my temp light was on instead of my neutral light. Engine wouldn't turn over at all. Put my questionable CDI back in, and neutral light is back on, engine turns over, reverse indicator works, but no spark.

Would the orange wire (going to the coil from the CDI) crossing with a ground fry the ignition circuit on the CDI? Thats what I am thinking, because the first thing I found was the black wire that was really burned was also twisted with the orange wire, and had burned and subsequently broken the orange wire. I fixed that first...

And from what I've read about 01 CDI's in a 02+, they can fry something.. But anybody know if it changes which indicator lights are on as well?

Anyway.. Still need to figure out the no spark.. I checked the wires mentioned above (red, brown, red / black and red / white) and they all looked to be unmelted by the ground wire, certainly no visible arc spots or holes / chafed areas.. I didn't think one of them shorted out because the fuse didn't blow..

I think the order of issues happening was lack of the bolt on the case pushed an overload onto the smaller wiring. if you follow the worst burns, it follows a path straight to the ground on the coil (this bolt was also loose). When the wire heated near the coil, it melted through the insulation, and melted the orange wire as well, making contact and causing that to short out instead. Would that fry my CDI, but not cause a fuse to blow?

What to try / test next??
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The manual is limited in its tests and does not find all faults. Have you attmepted to start with the rectifier/regulator unplugged? If spark returns, the stator overheated and has an internal short.
Yes, that was one of the first things I tried, and spark did not return..

Even if it doesn't, this is still a possiblility - you should ohm out the stator - make sure that no windings are shorted to any others, i.e., the three whites are one set, the red and white/red another, the green and white/green another. If any of these individual pairs (or threes in the case of white) show a resistive connection to any other pair, the stator windings are shorted (test with stator unplugged).
This I have not done.. Heading back to the garage to check and will report back.
 

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Master of the Electron
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The tests you did on the stator are not enough - have you performed the additional tests I suggested to determine whether any stator windings have shorted together? EDIT - your next post says you are off to do these.

Also, with the stator fully unplugged, check resistance from EVERY stator connection to ground - there should be near infinite resistance for all to ground, if not, again stator has a short.

The orange wire drives the coil's primary, which is very low resistance, so I don't expect that shorting it to ground would damage the CDI... CDI's SELDOM are the cause of problems - stators are almost ALWAYS the problem.

Perform my additional stator tests before assuming it's anything else.
 

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Master of the Electron
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He already did and no to the second.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Ok. I have two coils here, did try swapping them before and it didn't change.. Can't say for sure the second coil is good, but I assume it was (bought the bike and a parts bike). Unfortunately, the parts bike turned out to be an 01 (as determined by the CDI / wiring harness).

Also I am not the most electrically inclined (I try, but its never been my strongpoint).. So I think I performed the tests on the stator that you originally suggested. Ohming them out is making sure (depending on my multimeter settings), (a) I get a tone telling me there's continuity, or seeing a very low resistance / 0 reading when its on the Ohm symbol? If so, here's my results:

3 white wires (charging system? heading to the rectifier?), they all have continuity between them, but not to the other wires from the stator.

My other stator wires are:

Red
White / blue (plug on the harness is white / green, plug on the stator is white / blue)
White / green
White / red

Between the red and the white/blue (white/green on the harness), I get a tone / reading, but not between any of the others.

If I am understanding you correctly, I should have gotten a tone between the red / white/red, and a tone between both of the white/greens, but not between the red and white/greens?

Coincidently, I tried these tests on the "spare motor" and I got the same results.. The spare motor I haven't had running, and came to me with the stator cover bolts all missing, so I have reason to question the condition of the stator in the spare motor as well, if only for the fact that its missing all the stator cover bolts... Am I doing the test correctly, or am I just destined to not be electrically inclined?
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Also, with the stator fully unplugged, check resistance from EVERY stator connection to ground - there should be near infinite resistance for all to ground, if not, again stator has a short.
Again, learning how to test electronics.. For this test, I assume I want either OL showing in the multimeter, or no tone? I did this test (on all 7 wires coming from the stator), and got a reading of OL in the ohm screen, and no tone on the other setting.. so I would assume this means theres near infinite resistance?

The orange wire drives the coil's primary, which is very low resistance, so I don't expect that shorting it to ground would damage the CDI... CDI's SELDOM are the cause of problems - stators are almost ALWAYS the problem.
Ok, so I may be a little confused on the coil (YFZ's are much different LOL). I have three wires on the coil.. One to the spark plug, the orange one to the CDI, and a black to ground, correct? Where's the high voltage come from then?

Thanks again!
 

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Master of the Electron
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The orange wire will have very short 100V pulses on it when running (generated by the CDI). That's it. The Spark plug wire will have very short 10-40000V pulses on it. Ground is ground.

To make the resistance measurements of the windings, you need to set the scale on the meter to be higher than the expected resistance in the winding - usually, the setting that beeps when you have continuity will only measure up to several hundred Ohms. Several of the windings are 5,000 or so Ohms, so the meter must be set above this level (try 20k) and re-measure, writing down what you measure.

Make the measurements at the stator side of the first connector (the side that has white/blue) as the pair of white/geens are tied together after that first connector.

When measuring to ground, set the meter at it's HIGHEST Ohm setting - an OL at this setting guarantees that there is no connection, at all, to ground. (keep your fingers off the meter lead tips - or you'll be measuring the resistance of your body).
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Hmm. That may pose a problem with my meter, as it is auto-sensing meter? Or would that work to my advantage? I'll be heading out to the garage to re-test and write everything down.

And you are correct, the continuity test (tone) will only sound if resistance is less than 120 ohms (per my manual).. Thanks for educating me a little bit there, its good info to know..

FYI, this is the multimeter I have:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Equus-3320-Innova-Auto-Ranging-Digital-Multimeter/14644666
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Ok, I can't force the multimeter to a specific range as its 100% autosensing, but this is my results of point to point testing on all of the connections coming from the stator..


White 1
->White 2 - .8 ohm (flickering between .7 and .9)
->White 3 - .6 ohm (flickering between .5 and .7)
->Red - OL
->White/Red - OL
->White/Blue - OL
->White/Green - OL
->Ground - OL

White 2
->White 1 - .8 ohm (flickering between .7 and .9)
->White 3 - .6 ohm (flickering between .5 and .7)
->Red - OL
->White/Red - OL
->White/Blue - OL
->White/Green - OL
->Ground - OL

White 3
->White 1 - .6 ohm (flickering between .5 and .7)
->White 2 - .6 ohm (flickering between .5 and .7)
->Red - OL
->White/Red - OL
->White/Blue - OL
->White/Green - OL
->Ground - OL

Red
->White 1 - OL
->White 2 - OL
->White 3 - OL
->White/Red - OL
->White/Blue - .1 ohm
->White/Green - OL
->Ground - OL

White/Red
->White 1 - OL
->White 2 - OL
->White 3 - OL
->Red - OL
->White/Blue - OL
->White/Green - .504 K ohm (I assume this is also 504 ohm?) (Pinned at .504)
->Ground - OL

White/Blue
->White 1 - OL
->White 2 - OL
->White 3 - OL
->Red - .1 ohm
->White/Red - OL
->White/Green - OL
->Ground - OL

White/Green
->White 1 - OL
->White 2 - OL
->White 3 - OL
->Red - OL
->White/Blue - OL
->White/Red - .504 K ohm (pinned at .504)
->Ground - OL
 

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Master of the Electron
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Great measurements, great documentation - since your meter is autoranging, it will automatically find the best range for the measurement and give you good data.

And, I apologize, I was quoting colors from my head earlier and had the pairings wrong - the proper winding pairs are:

Red and White/blue - Charging/rotation direction winding - you measured 0.1 Ohm, should be 0.085 - GOOD

White/red and White/green - Pickup coil (what I call the crankshaft position sensor) - you measured 504 Ohms, should be 445 to 545 - GOOD

White, white and white - Charging System windings - you measured between 0.5 and 0.9 Ohms between all pairings, should be around 0.5 - GOOD (this is at the low end of the meter's capability, so I would expect it to measure high).

You measured infinite resistance between each of the windings - no shorts - GOOD

Also, you find no (infinite) resistance to ground for any of the windings - no shorts - GOOD.

From these measurements, I would call your stator good. What we can't tell is whether these good measurements turn bad when the stator heats up, or whether the pickup coil is close enough to the flywheel to generate pulses (white/red and white/green winding)...

But let's assume it is good for the time being. Good job.

Because of your strange ground state (lack of good ground to case), it is possible that the CDI has been subjected to some strange voltages between supply and ground, and so it is possible that it has been damaged. I hate having to declare the CDI as suspect, as it seldomly is, but it sure would be nice to have one to trade out for testing.

I can tell you that, if the start button does crank the engine over and if the reverse light works, the CDI is working to, at least, some degree. We don't know, however, whether the spark generation circuits are still intact, but the CDI is getting power and some of its internal logic is working as expected.

You can do a 'poor man's test' of the CDI spark output - an oscilloscope is necessary to fully check it - but by measuring AC voltage on the orange wire when cranking the bike you can get an idea of whether the CDI is generating a spark pulse - since the orange wire should have very short 100V pulses, and the AC meter is expecting to see a sine wave, what you will see is 0V when not cranking, and something below 1V when cranking - the very short pulses averaged with zero the rest of the time average out to around 0.6VAC, if I remember correctly.

If you see 0 not cranking and something like 0.5VAC or more WHEN cranking, first assumption is that the CDI is putting out the spark pulses. If you don't see any AC voltage while cranking, it will not automatically point to a bad CDI - the CDI instead may not be getting the signals it needs from the stator... this is why CDI testing is so painful without an oscilloscope.

You can swap the CDI connector wiring around to be able to try the 01 CDI - see 'Difference between 01 and 02+ CDIs explained', a sticky in the 660 general section - it shows the wire locations in both 01 and 02+ CDI's so you can swap wires around in the connectors to make your 02+ harness work with your 01 CDI... of course, its easier to get an 02+ CDI (often available for $25 or so on eBay), but if you're in a hurry, I'd try modding for the 01 CDI and testing with it.

Also perform the coil tests as described in the manual, just to be sure... we need to eliminate all possible causes here. (just in case your donor coil was bad).

A long post, I realize, but this should give you all the ammunition you need, I hope, to find and fix this.
 
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