Raptor Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This is my personal experience on running E100 ethanol in the Raptors.

**Disclaimer: I am not a professional, i don't know everything, this is just my personal experience and honest opinions.

Background Info: 2013 Raptor 700 and 2015 Raptor 700R with 14:1 diamond piston, Hot Cam 3, +3 TB, Monster exhaust/intake, PCV

Ran both bikes on VP110 for about a year now, ran very well and had 0 problems. Dyno tuned right at 69.53 hp (sea level corrected).

**Ethanol Disclaimer: You NEED a bigger injector, but you do not need fuel pump, fuel lines, etc... Ethanol IS NOT TOXIC, and it is not water! I am from Iowa where ethanol is readily available.

Stock injector is a 12 hole 425cc injector. I switched to a direct replacement Denso 12 hole 850cc injector. Running a stock NGK8E spark plug.

Tuning for E100 ethanol in the PCV with Auto tune is confusing but let me explain... Ethanol likes to be run rich, ethanol needs to be rich because ethanol is 34.8% oxygenated, which means when combusted 34.8% of the fuel you just injected becomes pure oxygen in the combustion chamber. Therefore you need ATLEAST 35% more fuel to make up for the oxygen, but 35% oxygen in the combustion chamber makes your a/f ratio leaner which means you need even more fuel to compensate for that (if you want to make maximum power). So auto tune O2 sensor reads lambda, 1 lambda = stoichiometric and converts it to a gas based a/f scale where 14.7 is stoichiometric (emission safe). Now when you are burning E100 ethanol, 9.05 a/f and 1 lambda is stoichiometric. So when you are burning ethanol and the auto tune reads a lambda value of 1 and gives you a a/f ratio of 14.7 on gas scale, you are actually running 9.05 a/f ethanol ratio. For maximum power on ethanol you are going to want betweeen 6.8-7.8 ethanol a/f ratio which converts to gas scale at 11.0-12.75. Therefore in the power commander I am running my auto tune a/f ratio at 11.5. Going from a 425cc injector to 850cc injector i assumed my fuel map would actually show negative or close to 0 numbers because the injector has so much more flow. However after auto tuning my fuel map with E100 and 850cc injector, my new fuel map is almost the same as what it was to my dyno fuel map on VP110 race fuel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Cold Starting: E85 doesn’t have cold starting problems. However E100 when sitting cold in a heated shop at 50* F they will start on there own, but it takes about 20-30 seconds of cranking before they fire up. So the solution is Diethyl Ether Starting Fluid for the first start of the day, lift up the seat, 1 quick spray right on the filter and it will start right away. Once running they will sit and idle perfectly. Once running even for only 5 seconds they will start right back up instantly, actually better than they did with VP110.

Running Cold: They take longer to warm up, about 5 minutes. They run very cool when riding, the exhaust will actually feel cool against your hand.

Power: We all know fire needs oxygen, this goes back to the tuning of ethanol, it is 35% oxygen!! More oxygen, more power! Why do turbos/superchargers make power? By compressing the air and therefore putting more oxygen in the combustion chamber. What is nitrous oxide? OXYGEN! So yes the power gain is noticeable! Sadly I don't have a dyno to verify exact back to back power gain. Feels like 4 horsepower and 3 ft lb of torque.

Timing: Ethanol can handle a farther advanced timing due to the high octane rating, however timing is best adjusting based off a dyno reading horsepower. Just inspecting the spark plug and trying to read it and adjust timing is really good enough.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Compression: Ethanol has plenty of octane for any compression ratio you can run. Pump fuel E85 is approximately 108 octane, but 15% race fuel and 85% ethanol is 112 octane. E98/E100 ethanol is 118 octane.

Cost: I did not do this for the sole purpose of “saving money”. I did this for an experiment. VP110 costed me $10.50 gal and was a 50-mile drive to get it. Ethanol plant is 5 miles from my farm, Pump E85= $1.59 gal and E98/E100= $1.29 gal.

Honest Opinion: It’s AWESOME. If you have been wondering about trying it, DO IT. You will not be disappointed! I did a lot of research and a lot of trial and error to come up with this post for all of you to learn from. I will update this forum as I come up with more solutions/conclusions. If you have any questions please DM me or reply to this post, I would be happy to help and share more info with anyone interested in converting to E85, E98, or E100.

Post a reply with your questions, comments, opinions, and feelings!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
295 Posts
Compression: Ethanol has plenty of octane for any compression ratio you can run.

Cost: I did not do this for the sole purpose of “saving money”. I did this for an experiment. VP110 costed me $10.50 gal and was a 50-mile drive to get it. Ethanol plant is 5 miles from my farm, Pump E85= $1.59 gal and E98/E100= $1.29 gal.

Honest Opinion: It’s AWESOME. If you have been wondering about trying it, DO IT. You will not be disappointed! I did a lot of research and a lot of trial and error to come up with this post for all of you to learn from. I will update this forum as I come up with more solutions/conclusions. If you have any questions please DM me or reply to this post, I would be happy to help and share more info with anyone interested in converting to E85, E98, or E100.

Post a reply with your questions, comments, opinions, and feelings!
Damn, that sounds awesome!

Thanks for the info.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,896 Posts
Good read. Thanks. I've been wondering about doing this in my old dinosaur.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
796 Posts
Good info for those who have option to buy it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Great info here! Just built a 795 running on E85. Heading to Fuel Customs this morning for some dyno tuning. Have you experimented on timing with E85? Now that is the part that confuses me. I see some guys advancing timing and some retarding timing... So I'm like WTF. Will see today what makes more power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
As far as timing goes Ethanol can take a lot more timing advance. However the ignition timing in the Power Commander will sometimes show false results, which really sucks. As far as I know it isn't a problem on the 2015+ bikes. So my recommendation is to 0 the timing and make your fuel map a/f for max horsepower, then try advancing the timing, if it makes less power then retard the timing. So the only way to correctly do it is to adjust timing for max hp, sometimes it will show negatives, sometimes it will show positives. I don't think I would advance or retard anywhere past 12... I was told only do 5-8 but I have ran 10 before on race fuel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,731 Posts
Thanks for the writeup, very informative. I would like to try e85, especially since i have the MSD blaster i could have a map for both e85 and pump gas, then just switch the map on the MSD dial, and swap injectors anytime i wanted. Im just worried that i would have to fill up every 45 minutes. How much more fuel would you say it uses compared to 91 octane pump gas?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Well when I ran 110 race fuel a full day at the dunes I would go through a fuel tank, however i have not been able to go to the dunes since switching so I can't really say that I burn 1.5 tanks or 2 tanks in a day. But looking at the fuel maps and injector flow rates I would say that on E100 I am burning right at 90% more, but I am running richer than you would on E85, I am guessing you would burn probably 60-70% more on the E85. But it definitely would work to switch back and forth, changing injectors is really simple. But I am positive that once you switch to E85 and get it tuned, you will never switch back, you will feel the power difference and I think you'll be amazed. I guess I figure if I have to start on a full tank in the morming and then fill up once during the day that the fuel consumption isn't really a big deal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Comparison of my pistons! First image is after 1 year of VP110 race fuel. Then I cleaned it perfectly and replaced rings before putting it back together. Second image is the same piston, but after 1 year of E98 Ethanol! Almost as clean as it was a year ago, slight discoloration, and very minor carbon/pitting (I could see it in real life). But what a difference between the two!! Scientifically ethanol does not produce as many hydrocarbons when combusted compared to gasoline, therefore does not create as much carbon buildup. Carbon buildup leads to detonation, higher cylinder temps, pre ignition, and leaking valves/valve seats due to the carbon built up on the backside of the valves and therefore the valves don't seal, ultimately carbon buildup sacrifices power and is bad.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
UPDATE: Been 1 year on E98 and have had 0 problems. I took the bike apart again to get a +2 head port job. Still leaving the bottom end stock and keeping my 14:1 piston. Hopefully will get to a dyno to prove the E98 power soon! Also added to the family with a Yamaha YXZ1000, got it tuned and running on E98 also!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
UPDATE: Been 1 year on E98 and have had 0 problems. I took the bike apart again to get a +2 head port job. Still leaving the bottom end stock and keeping my 14:1 piston. Hopefully will get to a dyno to prove the E98 power soon! Also added to the family with a Yamaha YXZ1000, got it tuned and running on E98 also!
What TB size will you be using? Been running E85 for almost a year on my 795 and just put a borescope down the spark plug hole this past weekend and it is carbon free.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I have been running a +3 TB, with a 850cc injector. After doing the +2 Race head from Cuervo, I am going be running a 54mm TB wi th my 850cc injector. I am glad your also having good luck with E85! Are you running pump E85 or buying it from a race fuel company? I bet that 795 duner rips!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
I have been running a +3 TB, with a 850cc injector. After doing the +2 Race head from Cuervo, I am going be running a 54mm TB wi th my 850cc injector. I am glad your also having good luck with E85! Are you running pump E85 or buying it from a race fuel company? I bet that 795 duner rips!!
Pump E85. I have been testing it every time I purchase it and the last two times it has tested at 87 but before then it was consistently 85. Pearson fuel is the one supplying E85 here in SOCAL and a big shout out to them for keeping it consistent. What cam will you be running? No complaints about my duner. 88hp 63tq and that was using 25" tires on the dyno. damn thing runs cooler than my sb/ss E85 bike so I can only think it is from the cryo treat. You will like the +2 head. Jose does some amazing work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
That's some awesome power numbers! Are you running a PCV? What did you do for a timing map? I know that ethanol can handle a lot of timing do to the fact that in theory it "explodes" or "burns" slower than gasoline and there for you can spark it and start the explosion farther before TDC on compression stroke without pre ignition or predetonation occurring. I am very excited for the +2 Head from Jose and the 50/50 cam, hopefully my little high compression sb/ss can run with the big bore/strokers... Thinking about heading down to Glamis next week, 26 hour drive for us, but otherwise it will be another month before it is warm enough to ride here... we got a high of -2° F today, probably not gonna take the Raptor out for a spin haha!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
206 Posts
Both bikes are using an MSD. The timing map I'm using is from Daniel (Cuervo) and it actually has negative timing. Made more power than then we added timing so i just went with that. I would have Jose port match the intake boot to the head if that is not already in the works. Here I'm saying it is cold when were under 40° F. Yea on E85 it would never get warm enough. I can take a pic of my timing map and post it if you like.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Both bikes are using an MSD. The timing map I'm using is from Daniel (Cuervo) and it actually has negative timing. Made more power than then we added timing so i just went with that. I would have Jose port match the intake boot to the head if that is not already in the works. Here I'm saying it is cold when were under 40° F. Yea on E85 it would never get warm enough. I can take a pic of my timing map and post it if you like.
Would you mind posting your timing map, Im going to switch to e85 soon as well and would like to get a general idea of what it looks like compared to my current map.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,408 Posts
Interesting info

I’m ready to go from Q16 to Ethanol soon. My bike has RE 14:1 804 Setup. The tuning tips really helps

I have the 850cc injectors now

Which Ethanol you recommend me to choose?

http://www.igniteracingfuel.com/racingfuel.html
I’m fond of vp’s c85. Working great for me. 83hp our of my 734, that’s a 6hp peak gain but a much better curve over 110.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top