Raptor Forum banner
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
381 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
:3question: Have you ever used, ran a dyno on, or know anything about the performance of the Raptor WebCams in your stroker engines. Also, I was wondering how the cranks are holding up in the 720 or 760 strokers if they are being wound to approximately 9,000 RPM's. I had initially wanted to build my 660, but a conversation I had with Powroll has me concerned with crank, tranny, and clutch durability, especially with a 8800 or above rev limit. They claimed anything over a 25% increase in power will lead to failure of these components even with heavy duty clutch, basket, gears, crank, and rod. What can you tell me? Also, when you do headwork for the raptor are you just reshaping the original ports or are you welding up and cutting new ports? Powroll claimed the stock head doesn't allow for much power improvement by method of port and polish. You are the first builder I've found that has a knowledge base primarily in the 660 and may persuade me to keep mine and build it rather than waiting for a 700 with a fuel mapping sensor on the combustion chamber or a sport Can-Am 800. One last question for now :help:Doesn't the stroked hot rods setup from Vito's come with a stroked hot rod crank and a barker rod, which will fit any standard piston? Your crank and rod setp are all Barker components. Here are a couple pics from Powroll of stroker failures?? They claim these failures were caused by excessive RPM's! rt or anyone else your knowledge and input is also appreciated. Thanks so much :thumbsup:
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,568 Posts
First: you get what you pay for.
Barkers is not a hotrods set-up ..there different
Hotrods +4mm crank/ rod suggested rpm limit is 8200 rpm
Barkers +4mm crank/ rod suggested rpm limit is 9000 rpm
Barkers +6mm crank/ rod suggested rpm limit is 8800 rpm
powrolls +5mm crank/ rod suggested rpm limit is 6800 rpm

The 720 has a +4mm stroke and a +2mm bore
The 760 has a +4mm stroke and a +5mm bore

I haven't heard any complaints from anyone who has had the barkers kits, or the hotrods..in terms of reliablity or blowing anything up. Powroll obviously has problems from the pictures you have,..that should tell you something.

You can do a standard port that'll give you more hp, but an hv port that gives more hp is where the actual ports are moved to accomidate better air flow characteristics. Its more complicated than that, but that should be good enough for now. Its substantially more expensive because of the time involved, but worth it.

I know for certain the megacycle cams give you the most hp between webs, hotcams, and megacycle,..you can get a custom grind, but again.. your going to pay for it.

Now,.. the bigger question. what kinda of riding do you do(mx, trail ,drag, xc,recrea,..ect), and what kinda of riding style do you have. That is what determines the build of the bike,...along with the size of your wallet...

What kind of build you looking to do?
what kind of riding are you planning on?
What kind of budget do you have?

coalshed'll definetly be able to help you out.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,069 Posts
powroll...unless you buy into their theory...they say all is bad...I spoke to their "tech"...and I qoute," fcr 39 are way too much for a 720", then they went on to discredit 35's...she hadn't even heard of some the "big" builders...some points were valid...just delete their site from your history...and you'll be fine...lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,674 Posts
If it makes you feel any better, I've been doing a lot of reading, and I will definately be going with coalshed when I build my motor. He's a very knowledgeable and helpfull guy and that's what really counts in my book. The problem with most builders is they are ignorant and set in their ways... while others like coalshed are progressive and helpfull even if you aren't throwing cash at him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
381 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
RT, thanks for the feedback. I am a recreational rider and ride at the dunes in Oregon primarily. I want to build my bike for dragging others at the dunes/hill shootouts, but I want to maintain the ability to ride the dune trails, also.

How's your bike coming along? I am leaning towards either the 720 or 760, but don't want to be rebuilding my motor every couple years. I probably ride 50 to 100 hours a year, so something that will last for me shouldn't be too difficult. Right now I have my bike jetted, piped, proflow adapter with K&N, and 4" extended swingarm. With one of these builds I am probably going to want to switch to dual pipes and possibly FCR carbs.

Does the headwork involved depend on the carb set up? I believe the answer is yes. In that case what kind of performance could I expect with these builds with stock carbs jetted appropriately or are the FCR's a must for power? Maybe I should just call Mike this week and pick his brain!! :grin_nod:

Powroll turned me off from building my engine. I would never have them touch my bike. I was really happy to find people that know so much about this engine (this forum) and specialized in this engine only (CoalShed). Now confidence in bringing life to this engine is back. My budget is probably a year out, but I want to do it right! I may sell my 73 Ford so I can do it sooner!

What cam did you finally settle on and where do I find the megacycle cams and specs on the Hotcams stage 3? Do the megacycle cams have a solid power curve or is it more of a peak? What about torque on them, too? Any Dynos out there on them or Webcams?

rt said:
I bought the 720 kit from vito's just for the fact that the rod looked beefier, and it wasn't and offset piston kit, find out a day after I bought it (a reply from scholle in the forum) that its actually a barkers crank and rod..
So, the vito kit comes with the barker setup. The 4mm stroke crank Vitos sells seperately appears to have the same crank, but I don't know. Do u? Where can I find barker cranks and rods other than Vito's or through coalshed. Don't take me wrong coalshed will be doing my headwork someday.

Does the HV stand for high volume and how much does the HV headwork run through Mike? Who did you get all your parts through? Any idea on prices of the individual barker components? Weight of the Barker Rod? Are you avoiding the +6mm Barker crank for any particular reason? I'm wondering what the weight is so I can compare to the falicon and carrillo. As you know, less mass, the faster it will wind.

Do you feel CP makes the best piston out there and will going from 11:1 to 12:1 or even Rossier's 13:1 really compromise durablity of stroker engines? Did you price check falicon cranks compared to Barkers. I appreciate anything you can tell me. You are full of good info and are saving me a lot of groundwork. Just fill me in whenever you find time. No pressure here. :thumbsup:

I've been doing a lot of research and know where to find parts for the lowest prices around. Anything I can help with I may have an answer! No promises though. After all you are a step ahead of me. What purpose are you building yours for: mx, rec., drags?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,568 Posts
Good list of questions :thumbsup:
Hv=high velocity
fcrs area must for high hp motors
Barkers cranks are better in my opinion,, they don't have an offset piston/rod
barkers rod is chromoly, it is light and, may be heavier than others , but is much more stronger.
the rod comes with the crank so don't worry about others.
here are the sites for the cams:
http://www.hotcamsinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cProducts.list&brandid=10&modelid=43&modelyear=2003&enter.x=41&enter.y=7
http://webcamshafts.com/
http://megacyclecams.com/catalog/catalog.pdf


theres about a $600-$800 difference between the 720- 760

I'm building a 760 and I ride at least 200 hrs a year.

The x4 is almost the same as the stage 3 power wise, at the end of the curve the x4 has about a 1.5 hp more, but runs $140 more plus core charge.

I avoided the 6mm crank because it gets into an area that isn't what I consider unreliable for how much I run it a year. It won't blow up, but you still have to maintane it. Plus, I'll never utilize the full potential of the kit even if I do get it..

cp, ross are good pistons, Je is alright (they had some blunders with there 10.75:1 pistons)

remember, higher comp takes more race fuel, and requires more maintance.
For 50hrs a year you'll be good though.

My riding includes mx, xc, trail, and drag..damn banshees,..I'm oriented towards mx and xc

The kind of build I got will run about $3600 for the 720 and near $4500 for the 760.
you can get them built to your budget.

I'm staying with the stage 3 hotcams for now, but may end up getting a x4 or x14 down the road, I want to see how it runs witht the stage 3 first.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,062 Posts
You've got alot on your mind :lol: but I suspect you're not the only one with questions like these. I'll do my best to answer you questions, if you have follow-up questions I'll do my best to answer those as well.

Have you ever used, ran a dyno on, or know anything about the performance of the Raptor WebCams in your stroker engines. I have not, I ride with a guy who has a Web 636 and it seems to run fine, he is happy with the performance from it. I have not tried a Web because I don't like the profiles on their cams, on paper they will be outperformed by other cams. It gets expensive to buy cams to test and if you think about it, none of the shops making over 70HP use a Web cam to do it.

Also, I was wondering how the cranks are holding up in the 720 or 760 strokers if they are being wound to approximately 9,000 RPM's. The Barker based 4mil cranks have had zero failures and routinely run to the stock rev limiter, I know one builder who runs the 4mil stroker to 10K RPMs and hasen't had any problems but I would not recommend that. Stock rev limiter is fine for the 4mils. The 6mils need to be set to 8800.

I had initially wanted to build my 660, but a conversation I had with Powroll has me concerned with crank, tranny, and clutch durability, especially with a 8800 or above rev limit. They claimed anything over a 25% increase in power will lead to failure of these components even with heavy duty clutch, basket, gears, crank, and rod. What can you tell me? Powroll was an early pioneer in Raptor stroking but they've become complacent, as many builders do once they reach a certain level, and now they find themselves 3 years behind in the tech department. Their stroker bikes will not run with any modern well built strokers. I recommend replacing the stock clutch basket even on a bone stock motor, they are junk. My personal 721 has stock tranny gears as do all other 70+ HP motors I know of, the stock gears hold up very well

Also, when you do headwork for the raptor are you just reshaping the original ports or are you welding up and cutting new ports? :lol: Don't want to get into to much detail here but yes, the HV porting invloves welding, cutting, reshaping, resizing etc, takes me about 35 hours to do one of these heads

Powroll claimed the stock head doesn't allow for much power improvement by method of port and polish.
They have not evolved with the tech, several shops charge 550 for what I call a cleanup port job, its the same stock ports just a little bigger, they are correct in that those bikes will not be competitive.

You are the first builder I've found that has a knowledge base primarily in the 660 and may persuade me to keep mine and build it rather than waiting for a 700 with a fuel mapping sensor on the combustion chamber or a sport Can-Am 800. Good dyno numbers are being put down by some built 700s although it seems terribly expensive to build one, and they don't seem to be living up to the expectations on the track, the huge number bikes aren't any faster than the built 660 based bikes (just from what I've been told of races that have taken place)

One last question for now :help:Doesn't the stroked hot rods setup from Vito's come with a stroked hot rod crank and a barker rod, which will fit any standard piston? Up till a few months ago, all the Barker stroker cranks started out life as stock cranks, now Tim has a factory that manufactures the crank as a 4mil and he puts his rod on it. When the new cranks came out, Vito's was interested in offering an alternative 719 kit to the hotrods setup and Tims 4mils were now being mass produced so it worked out well for everyone. The 6mils are still made from stock cranks on an order basis in-house at Barkers. Your crank and rod setp are all Barker components. I feel like the Barker setups are the best made, I could sell anything I wanted but I choose to sell Barker products because I believe they are the best quality and I run them on my personal bike. Here are a couple pics from Powroll of stroker failures?? They claim these failures were caused by excessive RPM's! Probably was caused by excessive RPMs, if you call 7K excessive, as I said before, powroll is behind the times, the geometry on their 770 is jacked, piston speed and bearing forces are through the roof on their setups, that is why they recommend 6800 as the rev limiter on a 5mil stroke, while I spin my 6mil to 8800 all day long without issue

Thanks so much No problem man, there are several very knowledgeable 660 owners here who have already chimmed in and I'm sure more will follow when they see this. Sorry for the book
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,568 Posts
I may have wrote already somewhere,..but my final build is a 760:

Barker pipes with quiet cores and spark arrestors
39mm fcr carbs
custom intake made especially for hv porting
twin k&n filters w/outerwears...no airbox
barkers +4mm crank/rod
cp 12:1 piston (105mm)
ferrea standard size valves
kibble white springs and retainers
stage 3 hotcam (Experimenting, may go to a x4,x14 down the road)
new sleeve, 105 bore
completely new seals and bearings in the whole motor
new cam chain
gytr basket
gytr clutch
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
381 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I gave you a series of books, so you owed me one! :lol: I'll hit you with other ?'s later. Thanks a bunch!

rt, is coalshed making your custom intake? If not, who is and what can you tell me about it? How much does the HV headwork and both the Barker 4mm and 6mm stroked crank with rods run$$$$?

rt said:
I avoided the 6mm crank because it gets into an area that isn't what I consider unreliable for how much I run it a year. It won't blow up, but you still have to maintane it. Plus, I'll never utilize the full potential of the kit even if I do get it..
So, the 6mm is reliable, but requires more maintenance than the 4mm. The dunes are pretty wide open, I might be able to use all the power if it is reliable. Extra maintenance are u speaking of bearing and seal replacement because of additional pressure exerted on the crank. I want to ride more, but right now I live too far for it to be practical. The most I could ever see me putting on one of these engines is what u ride 200hrs/year.

FYI, I found a great battery for built Raptors that puts out lots of cca's which you will need for a high comp build and it is a deep cycle that will last 5 times as long as your standard battery. Sorry to keep you waiting :grin_nod: It is an Odyssey PC545 (eBay had the best prices) and minimal modifications are required for the fit. A little more $$, but well worth it! Thought your engines might demand this :thumbsup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,062 Posts
Not to speak for RT, but the custom intake is not for sale unless I do the porting that goes with it. The manifold is not an off the shelf part like the trinity or similar intakes.

The 6mil is not any less reliable than the 4mil, which is to say they are bullet-proof, but the 6mil is going to be harder on piston rings than the 4mil, and the 4mil will be harder on rings than the stock stroke. Its impossible to add stroke and not increase side forces.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,568 Posts
03RaptorCV said:
rt, is coalshed making your custom intake? If not, who is and what can you tell me about it? How much does the HV headwork and both the Barker 4mm and 6mm stroked crank with rods run$$$$?
Coalshed did make my custom intake, he takes care of customers on a person by person basis. Plus it would be hard for anyone else to extend you his prices. He'll take care of you though! :thumbsup:
I've heard of some charging up to a $1000 for a hv port of his caliber, that too is something that'll have to be between you and him.

I know for sure a 6mm runs at least $200 more than a 4mm crank. Plus its more work to install, more machining has to be done, and the deck height takes more time to set.

03RaptorCV said:
I gave you a series of books, so you owed me one! :lol: I'll hit you with other ?'s later. Thanks a bunch!

rt, is coalshed making your custom intake? If not, who is and what can you tell me about it? How much does the HV headwork and both the Barker 4mm and 6mm stroked crank with rods run$$$$?

[quote So, the 6mm is reliable, but requires more maintenance than the 4mm. The dunes are pretty wide open, I might be able to use all the power if it is reliable. Extra maintenance are u speaking of bearing and seal replacement because of additional pressure exerted on the crank. I want to ride more, but right now I live too far for it to be practical. The most I could ever see me putting on one of these engines is what u ride 200hrs/year.
"I" say more maintanance. I ride a lot of hours a year...A LOT! (at least 200 hrs a year), so it wouldn't be practical to put a 6mm crank in my motor,..plus I would never use it to its full potential..You being in the dunes, drag racing, and only putting 50 hrs on your bike a year, might fit for you. Theres no question about the reliability of the crank or rod. I'm not talking about more maintanance in the bottom end, With a longer stroke your going to put more side pressure on the piston,..rings..Those are what I was talking about.. Your bottom end will be bullet proof no matter what set0up you get...Just to be safe on the 6mm, it be wise to get a dyna to limit your revs to 8800 or a hair lower.

760 and about 75hp is more than I'll ever need for my riding,...but there is a banshee with a small cheetah (around 65-70hp)kit up here I need to visit after I'm done....He's been beat'n on me for awhile now...
I know a built 720 kit would take him, but I want to annihilate him for all those times he got me! :grin_nod:
It'll be worth every cent too!

you may want to think about a 721 or 734/735 kit as well
721 is a +1mm bore, +6mm stroke
734-35 is a +2mm bore, +6mm stroke

A 720 +2mm bore, +4mm stroke is your best option as far as power to money is concerned
A 727 may run more than these just because you need to replace the rod and machine the bore, but is just a s powerful.

When you start looking at/ beyond the 721-720-734 kits you start paying about five times more per a hp to you get to a 760, and even more going to a 780.
I think the 727 is the exception, its in between the cost of the 760-780 and the 721-734 ect, just because of the machine work for the bore.
(Thats assuming all of these motors are built to there maximum for race gas.)

I'm sure the 727, 721, 719 or 734, are close power wise, each has its own chracteristic in making power across the band, The strokers may have more average power (and torque) and more power sooner, especially the 6mm, but the stock stroke big bores are going to rev quicker and go through the band quicker..Thats where gearing plays its roll. It depends on your riding style....where do you want the power at?

Now..going from one of these to a 760-780 your only going to gain a few hp probably 5 hp...maybe 8 at the very most, but it'll be more of an average across the band..

If I hit 72-73hp I'll be happy,if I hit 78hp it'll be awesome..I just planned on the average, so 74-75 is about where I'm looking.

BTW-YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY OTHER SERVICE BETTER THAN COALSHEDS! I've been planning an engine build since last year, and been through NUMEROUS builders looking at what I want.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
381 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I hate Banshees, too. For a raptor with just the K&N, Alba pipe, and Jetting I could beat any damn banshee with the same mods and a mild port and polish!! :grin_nod: I am sticking to my 4-stroke and Mike is going to make it real fast someday soon! :help: I hope! Mike A.K.A CoalShed I sent you an e-mail with specific questions and when you get a chance just throw me a reply with as much valuable info as you can. I am flexible and the sooner we formulate a plan the sooner I will find a way to come up with the $$$$

RT, I hope you throw dirt or sand all over that damn Banshee. Keep me posted on how yours is coming and please share any words of wisdom about where to get the parts that CoalShed isn't getting for you and anything else. There is a real nice 105mm CP 12:1 on Ebay. Should I just go for it. It is a real good deal! Check it out and give me your opinion. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yama...012QQitemZ220057176185QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Thanks again Mike and RT! :thumbsup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,568 Posts
Same piston I'm getting, I'd be a little nervous of a used piston.
I would think you would need new rings for that piston as well, especially after its been broke in on another engine, so add that cost, and the cost of new circlips, because they can't (shouldn't) be used again.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
17,063 Posts
A new ring pack costs around 30 bucks, and is required for a fresh install.

That said, these pistons are often sold very cheaply because no one has a use for them. If you can find one like new and cheap enough to make it worth your while, get it.


Hotrods crank assemblies are all hotrods components.
Barker crank assemblies are Barker rods and OEM cranks, with apparently an exception for the mass produced +4 which is still not using hotrod components.

I paid around 1k for my porting, but it included new valves and an intake. Unless Craycraft has gone off on a spree with their drag cam and upper eschelon porting, Barker is the only one I've ever heard of charging near 1k.

The odyssey battery is a good one. A Yamaha Grizzly Gel replacement battey does the trick for a few bucks less.

Tim's rods were designed for 660 road racing bikes, and while his builds weren't focused on peak hp at a high rpm the parts are strong enough to rev. The hotrods cranks and rods hold up as well.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top