Stock Headers versus aftermarket
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Same ? on another thread and still no response.
I am no pro with the 700R's, but will soon have some dyno runs between a slip-on end full system on the bike.
The stock headers look very similar to those on a 660 raptor and there are big gains by going for aftermarket headers with the 660's
I also own a XT660 two wheeler, which uses the same motor as the 700R. Only difference is the xt660 is a 660cc, where the 700R is a 686. Only bore is different. On the stock XT660, the OEM headers are way larger than the headers on the 700R, confirming my thought that you will see good gains by going for aftermarket headers. The 700R , simmelar to the 660, is very restrictive when it comes to the stock pipe, and intake side.
The stock headers look very similar to those on a 660 raptor and there are big gains by going for aftermarket headers with the 660's
I also own a XT660 two wheeler, which uses the same motor as the 700R. Only difference is the xt660 is a 660cc, where the 700R is a 686. Only bore is different. On the stock XT660, the OEM headers are way larger than the headers on the 700R, confirming my thought that you will see good gains by going for aftermarket headers. The 700R , simmelar to the 660, is very restrictive when it comes to the stock pipe, and intake side.
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Dont forget to post those dyno #'s, I'll be waiting! Dyno is always good.
I received the Sparks Pipe and the PCIII yesterday. The sparks headers are way larger than the stock headers. In fact the sparks headers are the same size as my XT660 stock headers. On the XT660, they don't replace the stock headers when they are after more power. Some even claim that making them larger will rob power, so the spark pipe size is right there where it should be
Not sure when the client will pop around to have his bike on the dyno, but it should be done my early next week.
We will not be making a custom map for hit, as he is thinking about other mods soon, which will make the map useless. We will try a few pre made maps from Dynojet and see which one works best for his setup.
Not sure when the client will pop around to have his bike on the dyno, but it should be done my early next week.
We will not be making a custom map for hit, as he is thinking about other mods soon, which will make the map useless. We will try a few pre made maps from Dynojet and see which one works best for his setup.
The headers do make a diff. I have heard from several others that run the power bomb that it did make a difference. I run one too, but have no idea if it by itself made a diff....I did it all at once.
I have heard the GYTR setup is nice too.
LTE's are really the way to go.....expensive though
I have heard the GYTR setup is nice too.
LTE's are really the way to go.....expensive though
Ok boys the dyno runs are in.
Ok, before I post the results, you need to understand how my dyno reads. I am at 4700ft above sea level, and my dyno is not compensating correctly for the altitude. My dyno numbers are about 12% lower that another Dynojet dyno, running the same bike at the coast.
I now have had 2 different 700R's with open airbox, aftermarket air cleaners and slip-on pipes. Both of them made around 42HP, or around 47 to 48HP on a sea level Dynojet dyno.
The one had a Two Brothers slip-on and the other a HMF slip-on. The HMF bike has a Noss Boss TFI unit and the other one had another make of TFI unit on it.
Then we took the HMF equipped bike, making 42HP and we added a Sparks X6 full system and replaced the Noss Boss with a Powercommander. We installed the default Sparks fuel injection map on it. The map is not perfect, running a bit rich, but we will do custom map for the 700R early next year.
The end result was way different. We gained 3HP at the top end, and the higher RPM was day and night different. In some places we gained nearly 7HP. It is massive, and the 700R is a different animal. We ended up with 45.3HP, which is about 51.4HP on a sea level Dynojet dyno. 'With a custom PCIII map, we might gain a little more, but not much more.
If you still think a slip-on and full system is about the same, think again.
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Ok, before I post the results, you need to understand how my dyno reads. I am at 4700ft above sea level, and my dyno is not compensating correctly for the altitude. My dyno numbers are about 12% lower that another Dynojet dyno, running the same bike at the coast.
I now have had 2 different 700R's with open airbox, aftermarket air cleaners and slip-on pipes. Both of them made around 42HP, or around 47 to 48HP on a sea level Dynojet dyno.
The one had a Two Brothers slip-on and the other a HMF slip-on. The HMF bike has a Noss Boss TFI unit and the other one had another make of TFI unit on it.
Then we took the HMF equipped bike, making 42HP and we added a Sparks X6 full system and replaced the Noss Boss with a Powercommander. We installed the default Sparks fuel injection map on it. The map is not perfect, running a bit rich, but we will do custom map for the 700R early next year.
The end result was way different. We gained 3HP at the top end, and the higher RPM was day and night different. In some places we gained nearly 7HP. It is massive, and the 700R is a different animal. We ended up with 45.3HP, which is about 51.4HP on a sea level Dynojet dyno. 'With a custom PCIII map, we might gain a little more, but not much more.
If you still think a slip-on and full system is about the same, think again.
Cool, good to know...but I dont know that it really shows anything about a full exhaust vs slip-on. You guys changed the fuel controller over to a PCIII and most likely ended up with a better tune than that of a regular doebeck style unit.
I am not denying the full system WILL make more power then a slipon, but I "dont know" by that much, and I also "dont know" that most of that gain was the result of a better map?
Thanks for the dyno though.....Its something atleast :thumbsup:
I am not denying the full system WILL make more power then a slipon, but I "dont know" by that much, and I also "dont know" that most of that gain was the result of a better map?
Thanks for the dyno though.....Its something atleast :thumbsup:
The PCIII would have added a bit more power, I agree, but the TFI units where set up as good as you can get it. At peak to top RPM the TFI's where very close to the PCIII Settings where it mattered.
Like I said, the PCIII was running a default map, and the mixture was not smooth and was around 12 to 12.5:1 which is a bit rich. It would drop the power output a little.
From experience, if you have a sort of ok mixture at the top end of the RPM range, you don't gain much power between running the mixture between 15:1 and 12:1 There are minor differences, but usually on a quad it is less than 1HP. Gaining about 6 to 7HP at the top end, is all the pipe, I can assure you.
Now, I am not saying the Sparks pipe is the best, I am just stating that a full system seems to perform way better than the slip-on setup.
If you look at the run, you will see that at the low to midrange, the slip-on and the full system is nearly exactly the same. Meaning at lower RPM, where you don’t need massive amounts of exhaust flow, both aftermarket pipes produced the same result, and actually saying that those TFI units where supply the right amount of fuel.
At peak, and the RPM range past peak, there is a difference. That is because the aftermarket header flows so much better than the stock unit.
I personally think the TFI units are a mission to set up and takes more effort than a PCIII. You cannot pin point problem areas with the TFI and in the end, you tend to work on some luck and a lot of runs to get the mixture to an acceptable range.
Like I said, the PCIII was running a default map, and the mixture was not smooth and was around 12 to 12.5:1 which is a bit rich. It would drop the power output a little.
From experience, if you have a sort of ok mixture at the top end of the RPM range, you don't gain much power between running the mixture between 15:1 and 12:1 There are minor differences, but usually on a quad it is less than 1HP. Gaining about 6 to 7HP at the top end, is all the pipe, I can assure you.
Now, I am not saying the Sparks pipe is the best, I am just stating that a full system seems to perform way better than the slip-on setup.
If you look at the run, you will see that at the low to midrange, the slip-on and the full system is nearly exactly the same. Meaning at lower RPM, where you don’t need massive amounts of exhaust flow, both aftermarket pipes produced the same result, and actually saying that those TFI units where supply the right amount of fuel.
At peak, and the RPM range past peak, there is a difference. That is because the aftermarket header flows so much better than the stock unit.
I personally think the TFI units are a mission to set up and takes more effort than a PCIII. You cannot pin point problem areas with the TFI and in the end, you tend to work on some luck and a lot of runs to get the mixture to an acceptable range.
I don't want to come across harsh and that's not what I'm trying to do so please don't take it that way but I can't say the following any more sugar-coated. Not slamming you as it's cool you actually took the time to dyno and post (cool of ya). However, with that said................
I know dyno time usually equals $$ but if you're going to do a test it'd be nice is it was truly useable. We'd all like to see an apples-to-apples/scientific test. i.e. the ONLY thing different between the 2 dyno runs has to be the addition of a set of headers. Once you change fuel boxes and pipes we've lost the bubble and only can look at the results for what they are (not a true comparison of any one component).
I know dyno time usually equals $$ but if you're going to do a test it'd be nice is it was truly useable. We'd all like to see an apples-to-apples/scientific test. i.e. the ONLY thing different between the 2 dyno runs has to be the addition of a set of headers. Once you change fuel boxes and pipes we've lost the bubble and only can look at the results for what they are (not a true comparison of any one component).
rich807 I agree with you. Changing the TFI for a powercommander might add a few more HP and it might not have been a true comparison.
If you look at the A/F Ratio across the whole RPM range, you will find some spots where the TFI units will not deliver the right amount of fuel. They might be a tad to rich or lean.
From experience, especially at the higher end of the RPM range, it does effect power, much if you don’t run a perfect mixture. You might get a HP here or there more if you get the mixture perfect, but not a massive gain as the dyno shows... I don't believe that the powercommander by itself will add a significant amount of power over a well set up TFI. When I 1st got my hands on the TFI, the 700R was making around 37HP. After some fine tuning of the TFI, we got it up to 42HP.
Also, note that I said that the powercommander was not tuned right. It was actually running a tad rich and no way near a good setup. So if you take into account that the TFI was set up quite well, plus you compare it to a powercommander that is not set up perfectly, you can make the assumption that the powercommander was not making a big difference and added a lot more power.
I will get the A/F ratio comparison between the TFI and the powercommander to show you that they where not way out. Both units supply fuel to the motor, and if the fuel delivery is similar between the TFI and powercommander, then the power output should also be similar. Not so?
Anyway, besides the fuel injection, the idea of the dyno runs is to show what happens when you add an aftermarket header.
The top end and over ref is much better. I dyno a lot of quads, and I get the exact same result on Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki, when you change from a stock header to an aftermarket unit.
An aftermarket header will add more power, that I can guarantee you, so it is still worth the effort do add a full system. The headers design between different manufacturers are different, while the slip-on or silencer is very similar in design. A spark header might work very different to a GYT-R and both of those might be very different to a Pro Circuit.
If you look at the A/F Ratio across the whole RPM range, you will find some spots where the TFI units will not deliver the right amount of fuel. They might be a tad to rich or lean.
From experience, especially at the higher end of the RPM range, it does effect power, much if you don’t run a perfect mixture. You might get a HP here or there more if you get the mixture perfect, but not a massive gain as the dyno shows... I don't believe that the powercommander by itself will add a significant amount of power over a well set up TFI. When I 1st got my hands on the TFI, the 700R was making around 37HP. After some fine tuning of the TFI, we got it up to 42HP.
Also, note that I said that the powercommander was not tuned right. It was actually running a tad rich and no way near a good setup. So if you take into account that the TFI was set up quite well, plus you compare it to a powercommander that is not set up perfectly, you can make the assumption that the powercommander was not making a big difference and added a lot more power.
I will get the A/F ratio comparison between the TFI and the powercommander to show you that they where not way out. Both units supply fuel to the motor, and if the fuel delivery is similar between the TFI and powercommander, then the power output should also be similar. Not so?
Anyway, besides the fuel injection, the idea of the dyno runs is to show what happens when you add an aftermarket header.
The top end and over ref is much better. I dyno a lot of quads, and I get the exact same result on Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki, when you change from a stock header to an aftermarket unit.
An aftermarket header will add more power, that I can guarantee you, so it is still worth the effort do add a full system. The headers design between different manufacturers are different, while the slip-on or silencer is very similar in design. A spark header might work very different to a GYT-R and both of those might be very different to a Pro Circuit.
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