[Tiggyboot]

Ok, before I get started, let's keep this civilized and on the up and up. My true or false deals with the age old question of doing exhaust and intake with or without efi programmer. Here goes.

We know that the efi system on the Raptor is supposed to adjust for altitude, this is true right? If that is the case, it is adjusting for air/oxygen density. In other words, it makes on the fly adjustments for the fuel air mixture. Ah ha, wait a minute, how can it do that if it's not a closed loop system? But somehow it does. So if that is the case, what is the difference between elevation adjustments by the efi and putting on a pipe and intake? The latter puts more air into the motor, ie more oxygen. So wouldn't the efi system pick up on that?

According to this article, http://www.quadmagazine.com/quad/tests/article/0,24942,1160468,00.html they say you can make the mods without programmer but to get the utmost, tweaking with one is a good idea. I hope you don't diss Quad magazine cause many of you are still gloating about the 450/Raptor shootout. I know how much you guys hated the pipe shootout on the Rappy. Ok, add to magazine claim is the fact that Yamaha sells their full exhaust and intake, but no programmer? Why on earth would they do that AND say your warranty is not void if you use their GYTR parts? They even go as far as posting dyno results with the mods. Has anyone talked to their dealer about this, or YOA for that matter?

Now I ask again for you to be kind and not give me the "it's your bike, do what you want, etc". I am not saying I believe one way or the other. I'm just throwing this out for discussion. The main reason is lately I've seen quite a few posts where guys doing the mods with the programmer are having problems. I'm sure there are many who are not having problems. But if you can do the two mods and maintain the full on reliability, that would be ideal, wouldn't it?

So, what do you think? I know many say that it will run too lean etc, but has anyone actually blown a motor or caused irreversible damage? What factual proof are people basing their claim of needing an efi programmer on?

so, programmer needed, true or false?

MK

 

[Shawnz]

Ok, before I get started, let's keep this civilized and on the up and up. My true or false deals with the age old question of doing exhaust and intake with or without efi programmer. Here goes.

We know that the efi system on the Raptor is supposed to adjust for altitude, this is true right? If that is the case, it is adjusting for air/oxygen density.

That last statement is the key. I haven't studied the Raptor's EFI system but I imagine there is a BAP sensor someplace that measure barometric pressure. This changes with altitude (it's how aircraft altimeters work).

Because the Engine / intake / exhaust is the 'known constant' it's easy to adjust for different barometric pressures (or altitudes).

In other words, it makes on the fly adjustments for the fuel air mixture. Ah ha, wait a minute, how can it do that if it's not a closed loop system? But somehow it does. So if that is the case, what is the difference between elevation adjustments by the efi and putting on a pipe and intake? The latter puts more air into the motor, ie more oxygen. So wouldn't the efi system pick up on that?

No, because the computer only knows the atmospheric pressure and how much fuel it puts in, not the end result of that mixture. I imagine it is a fairly basic Barometric pressure vs fuel multiplier.

All this having been said, my Raptor is stone stock and will get a PCIII when I get around to putting exhaust on.

Shawn

 

[Diddly]

Yes I believe Yamaha calls it an "air intake pressure sensor" , basically a speed density setup I think. I had wondered the same thing as you Marcel, so I installed a wideband O2 sensor and compared stock to S/A removed and Lid off and it went very lean, meaning the EFI was not compensating for the additional air flow.

 

[Randy27]

Shawnz gets a gold star :thumbsup: Although Yamaha doesn't call it a BAP sensor The air pressure sensor and altitude seasor do exactly as he describes.

Yamaha sells their full exhaust and intake, but no programmer? Why on earth would they do that AND say your warranty is not void if you use their GYTR parts? They even go as far as posting dyno results with the mods. Has anyone talked to their dealer about this, or YOA for that matter?

The dealer can adjust the ECU with a straight across the board percentage of fuel enrichment if they install the GYT-R performance parts and the bike is lean this is what they will do. If you install the filter & pipe and then run the bike lean Yamaha is not going to warranty it.

My local dealer sells the PCIII and is an authorized Dynojet tuning facility and if you purchase a performance pipe and filter for a 700R they will suggest the PCIII and a dyno tune and if they do it you are fully under warranty.

Some Yamaha dealers service deptartments do not have the knowledge training or equipment to reflash the stock ecu and unfortunatly still sell the GYT-R performance parts and tell you you can bolt em on and go :3question:

You know what, it is your bike and you can do anything you want even if you don't want to hear that. You have to make the choice, the info is out there and well documented, I have seen others who chose to ignore it and after about a year needed a complete top end rebuild. After 200 hard duning hours I had Kenz Cycle do the 780 build on mine and they said upon teardown it looked great and I was running the GYT-R filter and LTE duals with a PCIII and a Dyno tuned custom map. I had zero problems and don't know of anyone who has ran that combo who has had any. I can tell you the problems you have read about here have about 99 % chance of having nothing at all to do with the EFI controllers other than the controller is only as good as the map that is loaded to it. I think from my experience with playing with maps for others and seeing what I have seen that some of the maps are just to damn rich and in that respect it's no different from running a carb that's jetted way to fat it will make the oil smell like gas and wash the cylinder down. The oil level issue everyone has been disscusing and speculating about could be nothing more than the oil level check procedure is not being followed or understood, resulting in incorrect readings coupled with a rich map and people who do not have a lot of mechanical knowledge and reading the speculation on here and asuming the worst. I'm sure out of all the 700R's that some have had TPS or injectors go bad and had they same gasy oil problems but this is not the norm and not related to the EFI controller IMHO.

 

[Tiggyboot]

Some good responses. Does it mention anything on the Yamaha parts site that the exhaust and intake require ECU flash update? You would think they would say that. Just being devil's advocate. I also wonder what made quad mag make that statement that the bike's efi system doesn't need the programmer. How did they come to that conclusion? I'm half tempted to send them an email to hear their response, if they would even.

 

[Randy27]

I quit reading that mag. I think they make a lot of uneducated guess's or assumptions, but that's just my opinion.

 

[headingnorth]

Good post along with good responses! This is the stuff I come here for........

 

[pile0g00]

Some good responses. Does it mention anything on the Yamaha parts site that the exhaust and intake require ECU flash update? You would think they would say that. Just being devil's advocate. I also wonder what made quad mag make that statement that the bike's efi system doesn't need the programmer. How did they come to that conclusion? I'm half tempted to send them an email to hear their response, if they would even.

If you look at GYTR intake and exhaust parts for the 660 they don't say that you need to rejet...

 

[proptwister]

Good post along with good responses! This is the stuff I come here for........

:thumbsup: Definately!!!!

Later,
Matt

 

[ATVhound]

I too come here for these type of posts... call it simple thinking, I just figured the 700R being EFI has no jets to change so you must have something like the PC3 to get more fuel.

 

[AnotherZ]

Hey guys, new to the board, new to the Raptor. Just bought an '07 GYTR-took it out yesterday and love it! Stock but have PC III, Pro Design intake adapter filter and EHS racing lid in hand. Deciding on exhaust. I don't know a lot about this machine yet but I will stick my 2 cents in anyway. I would agree with RaptorRandy27 which I think explains how Yamaha handles the selling of the parts by reprogramming the stock computer.

Barometric pressure is measured by Speed density/air intake pressure sensor or whatever the sensor is called on the Raptor. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not see an O2 sensor(closed loop system) on the quad. If the quad had an O2 sensor, it would be able to correct it's air/fuel ratio by monitoring the exhaust. Without the O2 sensor, I don't believe the system has a "good way" of determining if air flow has been increased on the intake or exhaust side.

Before I bought the quad, all of the magazines I read stated that the quad will compensate for those mods. I ASSumed the system had an O2 sensor. Now I am under the impression that the magazines also ASSumed this as well.

So I also believe that the computer can not compensate for those mods automatically. Yamaha can sell the parts and address the issue by "reprogramming your stock curves. Make sense? Sound right?

 

[Randy27]

Hey guys, new to the board, new to the Raptor. Just bought an '07 GYTR-took it out yesterday and love it! Stock but have PC III, Pro Design intake adapter filter and EHS racing lid in hand. Deciding on exhaust. I don't know a lot about this machine yet but I will stick my 2 cents in anyway. I would agree with RaptorRandy27 which I think explains how Yamaha handles the selling of the parts by reprogramming the stock computer.

Barometric pressure is measured by Speed density/air intake pressure sensor or whatever the sensor is called on the Raptor. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not see an O2 sensor(closed loop system) on the quad. If the quad had an O2 sensor, it would be able to correct it's air/fuel ratio by monitoring the exhaust. Without the O2 sensor, I don't believe the system has a "good way" of determining if air flow has been increased on the intake or exhaust side.

Before I bought the quad, all of the magazines I read stated that the quad will compensate for those mods. I ASSumed the system had an O2 sensor. Now I am under the impression that the magazines also ASSumed this as well.

So I also believe that the computer can not compensate for those mods automatically. Yamaha can sell the parts and address the issue by "reprogramming your stock curves. Make sense? Sound right?

You've got it :thumbsup:

 

[Headrope]

"As the requirements for the engine to deliver more performance and cleaner exhaust gases increase, it becomes necessary to control the air-fuel ratio in a more precise and finely tuned manner. To accommodate this need, this model has adopted an electronically controlled fuel injection (FI) system, in place of the conventional carburetor system. This system can achieve an optimum air-fuel ratio required by the engine at all times by using a microprocessor that regulates the fuel injection volume according to the engine operating conditions detected by various sensors."-Outline of the FI system, Yamaha YFM700RV Service Manual.

 

[Tiggyboot]

"As the requirements for the engine to deliver more performance and cleaner exhaust gases increase, it becomes necessary to control the air-fuel ratio in a more precise and finely tuned manner. To accommodate this need, this model has adopted an electronically controlled fuel injection (FI) system, in place of the conventional carburetor system. This system can achieve an optimum air-fuel ratio required by the engine at all times by using a microprocessor that regulates the fuel injection volume according to the engine operating conditions detected by various sensors."-Outline of the FI system, Yamaha YFM700RV Service Manual.

Another statement that makes you wonder what to do. I'd love to hear Yamaha's inside tech guys theory on the programmer requirement. Again I stress, I'm not saying yay or nay to the need of one, just having dialogue.

 

[Chicagoland Atv]

"As the requirements for the engine to deliver more performance and cleaner exhaust gases increase, it becomes necessary to control the air-fuel ratio in a more precise and finely tuned manner. To accommodate this need, this model has adopted an electronically controlled fuel injection (FI) system, in place of the conventional carburetor system. This system can achieve an optimum air-fuel ratio required by the engine at all times by using a microprocessor that regulates the fuel injection volume according to the engine operating conditions detected by various sensors."-Outline of the FI system, Yamaha YFM700RV Service Manual.

Another statement that makes you wonder what to do. I'd love to hear Yamaha's inside tech guys theory on the programmer requirement. Again I stress, I'm not saying yay or nay to the need of one, just having dialogue.

ummm... we've already covered this. There is no wondering involved. :3question: There is no O2 sensor. The service manual isn't saying anything that isn't true. The manual is written for a stock bike not one that has modifications. :lol:

 

[Headrope]

I never suggested there was an O2 sensor.

And I understand that the service manual is written for a stock bike. Regardless of what intake filter you use or exhaust pipe you put on you still have stock sensors.

The ECU basically controls two things as far as the fuel injection system is concerned: when the fuel injector squirts and for how long. It determines those things by processing data reported by various sensors. The data must fall within pre-programed parameters for the stock ECU to control the fuel injection system efficiently.

The PCIII and Dobeck are essentially programable ECUs. By installing them you are able to manipulate the MAP (manifold absolute pressure), a measure of air temperature and density the ECU uses to determine for how long to fire the injector. The new ECU still collects information from stock sensors.

So bottom line as I interpret it: The PCIII and Dobeck are necessary if you enlarge the filter or remove the airbox lid because in changing those you affect the air density which the ECU uses to determine how much gas to squirt. More, cooler air coming in means more oxygen by default needing additional fuel. Additional fuel cannot be supplied unless the ECU is programmed to recognize the need for it. More air - additional fuel = decreased air fuel ratio = less performance.

 

[Randy27]

The PCIII and Dobeck are programable ECUs. By installing them you are able to manipulate the MAP (manifold absolute pressure), a measure of air temperature and density the ECU uses to determine how long to fire the injector. But the new ECU still collects information from stock sensors.

Hmm, as I understand it they modify pulse width with a fixed map that add's or removes (in the case of the PCIII) a pre programed percentage of fuel, the stock ECU still polls the sensors and makes adjustments for air temp and altitude but can not compensate for modifications to the intake or exhaust when air flow is changed by a large amount with high flow filters or free flowing exhaust systems, hence the need for an after market EFI controller. If I am mistaken then by all means anyone with knowledge on the subject please explain in detail where I am incorrect as we are all here to expand our knowledge on the 700R

 

[Tiggyboot]

Awesome responses guys. Alot of enlightening info, but whatelse would you expect from this great site.

MK